[3.5-4e] What would be the consequences of blowing up the abyss?

[Gamerlord]

So, one of my players asked me if I could revise a well-used 3.5 campaign into 4e, I said sure, I decided to fling the campaign world 300 years into the future, the first problem was putting the world into a dark age(Like 4e assumes a world is in.) My first objective was figuring out an excuse for the different gods and plane cosmology. I decided that the device I would use is that 150 years before the 4e campaign world begins, some jerk wizard blew up the abyss because of a grudge with Demogorgon. almost no demons were harmed in this, and they simply moved into the material plane, as well as waking up the primordials, led by an once-dead god called the elemental god of blood that I retconned from being an imprisoned ages-old eldtirch abomination god into being a primordial. All the planes went KABOOM in the following war, after the dust settled(Which took about 50 years.) Some of the demigod servants of the gods that died replaced them (i.e Ioun was a demigod daughter of Boccob that replaced him.) The remaining primordials reshaped what was left of the elemental planes into the elemental chaos. Asmodues took over some demiplanes and reshaped them into the new nine hells, the abyss doesn't exist, though most of the demon lords have used their sheer willpower to make their own small kingdoms in the elemental chaos, though a few such as Orcus have made their kingdom in the material plane.


So, what are the consequences of removing the abyss and having folk like Orcus make their kingdom in the material plane?

[Samb]

This has already happened. 4th edition was the result

[Gamerlord]

This has already happened. 4th edition was the result

But the abyss exists in 4e, and no demon lords live in the material plane.

Also, I think that war started in creation, with Boccob and Nerull never existing to begin with.

[Samb]

But the abyss exists in 4e, and no demon lords live in the material plane.

Also, I think that war started in creation, with Boccob and Nerull never existing to begin with.

pretty sure Amodeus won the Blood war and drove the Abyss into the elemental chaos. I have no idea what became of the demon lords, as I don't play 4th but I would say if they were on the Prime, things would suck big time for the poor world(s) they decided to take over.

[Gamerlord]

pretty sure Amodeus won the Blood war and drove the Abyss into the elemental chaos. I have no idea what became of the demon lords, as I don't play 4th but I would say if they were on the Prime, things would suck big time for the poor world(s) they decided to take over.

Isn't that only in FR?

[Gamerlord]

Besides, the abyss, quite literally, blew up, all the demons lords survived, and some used sheer willpower to build their own small planes. The NEP became the shadowfell, etc.

[bosssmiley]

So, what are the consequences of removing the abyss and having folk like Orcus make their kingdom in the material plane?

Hell on Earth, quite literally. Look up some of the old Greyhawk source material for Almor, the Empire of Iuz and the Great Kingdom, where the various evil emperors had assorted fiefdoms of infernal beings at their beck and call.

"Some parts of Aerdy aren't so bad. You're not as likely to be pulled from your bed and torn apart by a rampaging fiend..."

On the bright(?) side, you get to use all the High Adventure in the Lower Planes plot hooks without plane-hopping.

[taltamir]

why would there be any consequences beyond what you already detailed?
the abyss blew up without harming any of the denizens who got dumped on the prime material... there was a giant war, gods died, gods rose, demi planes were carved out of the elemental chaos, planes were restructured... and you end up with the exact standard 4e setting...
so... no actual gameplay effect.

[Gamerlord]

why would there be any consequences beyond what you already detailed?
the abyss blew up without harming any of the denizens who got dumped on the prime material... there was a giant war, gods died, gods rose, demi planes were carved out of the elemental chaos, planes were restructured... and you end up with the exact standard 4e setting...
so... no actual gameplay effect.

Well, in standard 4e setting the abyss wasn't blown to bits by an angry wizard, in this revised campaign world, the abyss was blown to bits by an angry wizard, and some demon lords decided that the elemental chaos sounded nice and carved out mini-kingdoms in it. After the massive war of course.

[Shadow_Elf]

I think you are looking for repercussions that just are not there. You've detailed all the consequences yourself: Demon Lords are God-Kings of the Prime, the cosmology is otherwise largely the same as the basic 4e setting, there is no Abyss, but there are parts of the Elemental Chaos that are basically mini-Abysses and the gods got shuffled into the current pantheon. It doesn't have to be any more complicated than that!

Also, as an aside, Nerull did exist in the standard 4e setting, but the Raven Queen literally killed him and took his stuff.

[KillianHawkeye]

As far as I know, the Abyss isn't that big of a deal in 4E. It's pretty much just where the demons live (along with some deities and other assorted horrific creatures). So without the Abyss, those things just live someplace else. You seem to have figured it all out pretty well already. The demons don't really care about the Abyss, and they don't mind living closer to where the meals are, so there's no problem there.

Although, if you have packs of demons roaming the countryside, that's gonna push the civilized races into greater and greater isolation, so really play up the "points of light"/dark ages aspect of the setting. Enough demons putting down roots on the Prime really will be like Hell on Earth (or the Abyss on Earth ), and that's going to have some effect on the culture, politics, and economy of the area. People will be even more distrustful of strangers, justice will be even harsher than usual, etc. This really has a lot of potential to become a world of extreme opposites if you want it to.

[onthetown]

Without reading previous posts concerning the Forgotten Realms 4e conversion... Just straight-up repercussions? None that I see. You've got an interesting campaign where your characters can try to defeat evil at their doorstep without needing clerics or wizards and whatnot to get them to the Abyss. Since it's been blown up.

Unless you or your players detest overly-dreary, miserable campaigns where life is hell and demons/devils/whatever rule the world, it actually sounds fun. Gives your paladins something to work toward.

Except you might have players who get it into their heads that they want to help out the chaoticness and evilness of it all.

[Inyssius Tor]

As far as I know, the Abyss isn't that big of a deal in 4E. It's pretty much just where the demons live (along with some deities and other assorted horrific creatures). So without the Abyss, those things just live someplace else. You seem to have figured it all out pretty well already. The demons don't really care about the Abyss, and they don't mind living closer to where the meals are, so there's no problem there.

Actually, the Abyss is a huge deal in the main 4e cosmology. I wouldn't hesitate to call it the single largest threat in the implied setting, even including the Lovecraftian horrors waiting Outside.

It's just that the Abyss is very, very, very far away from the Material Plane in 4e. The Elemental Chaos is infinite and hard to navigate, and the maelstrom of the Abyss--constantly swirling back down toward the all-consuming black hole of unimaginable evil which forms its root--is located at its heart.

But even considering the distance, and the hazards, and the constant metaphysical current flowing back into the Abyss, and the constant infighting of the demons, and the many elemental beings which act as a deterrent and buffer, and the primal spirits which guard the world from extraplanar incursion against even the gods--even considering all of that, the last known deicide was committed by a host of demons. Nerath, the last great empire of the world, was brought down not a century ago by the influence of the Demon Prince of Gnolls. And the black hordes of god-killer Orcus still gather in the valleys of the Shadowfell, in brazen defiance of the deity who rules that place.

The abyssal threat isn't made terribly explicit, but don't think it's not a threat.

[erikun]

Yeah, others have already mentioned the biggest consequences. Rather than having the infinite layers of the Abyss all in one location, you now have the infinite kingdoms of the Abyss scattered all about the planar landscape. Probably the biggest consequence is that, with demons no longer restricted to the Abyss, your players are likely to encounter them wandering around any of the planes - Elemental Chaos, Astral, Feywild, Shadowfell, or even random forests in the Prime. It sounds like that's what you wanted, though.

4e history has Tharizdun at the center of the Abyss - the gods literally smacked him down hard enough to leave a crater in the Elemental Chaos, which is where the Abyss (and Demons) originated. Your players are unlikely to know/unlikely to care about that detail, but you could use it as a high-level aspect of your campaign.

[Gamerlord]

Yeah, others have already mentioned the biggest consequences. Rather than having the infinite layers of the Abyss all in one location, you now have the infinite kingdoms of the Abyss scattered all about the planar landscape. Probably the biggest consequence is that, with demons no longer restricted to the Abyss, your players are likely to encounter them wandering around any of the planes - Elemental Chaos, Astral, Feywild, Shadowfell, or even random forests in the Prime. It sounds like that's what you wanted, though.

4e history has Tharizdun at the center of the Abyss - the gods literally smacked him down hard enough to leave a crater in the Elemental Chaos, which is where the Abyss (and Demons) originated. Your players are unlikely to know/unlikely to care about that detail, but you could use it as a high-level aspect of your campaign.

I replaced Thazrudin with the elemental god of blood.

[erikun]

Then I think you have already covered all the consequences from the explosion. The Elemental Chaos will probably be a lot rougher to travel through, especially if the party doesn't know what spots belong to the God of Blood and thus avoid. As Inyssius Tor pointed out, the Abyss is a major travel destination, but that's mostly been covered by the "Abyssal pocket kingdoms" that have been created by roaming Demons.

[Gamerlord]

Then I think you have already covered all the consequences from the explosion. The Elemental Chaos will probably be a lot rougher to travel through, especially if the party doesn't know what spots belong to the God of Blood and thus avoid. As Inyssius Tor pointed out, the Abyss is a major travel destination, but that's mostly been covered by the "Abyssal pocket kingdoms" that have been created by roaming Demons.

Nice, so there isn't anything I missed?

[Inyssius Tor]

4e history has Tharizdun at the center of the Abyss - the gods literally smacked him down hard enough to leave a crater in the Elemental Chaos, which is where the Abyss (and Demons) originated. Your players are unlikely to know/unlikely to care about that detail, but you could use it as a high-level aspect of your campaign.

That's a great mental picture, but... well, not exactly:

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In the latter days of the Dawn War, the god who was Tharizdun went walking beyond the borders of the universe. He sought a weapon against the primordials. He found one, or was given it, or it found him. A "shard of pure evil", it was called.

He carried it deep into the Elemental Chaos. He walked among the lords of that place for a while, sowing dissent and treason. He was mighty and charismatic in those days--more than he ever had been before he found the shard--and a number of primordial lords even swore themselves to his service. When the time was right, he struck. The precise details are uncertain, but one thing is clear: Tharizdun cast this shard of pure evil into the center of the Elemental Chaos, where it burrowed deep into its heart.

Setting aside purple prose for a moment: this was very bad. A giant vortex of darkness and evil began to churn into existance around it; great masses of elementals were twisted into new forms, and even primordial lords were corrupted. The entire Elemental Chaos is being slowly drawn into the newborn Abyss, a mile at a time.

The shard of evil itself isn't mentioned much, but what we do know is kind of telling. It is immensely powerful, in a metaphysical sort of way, and it is sentient (again in an ineffable, metaphysical sort of way). It drove Tharizdun completely mad, and--as everyone learned, when the Abyss was formed and the shard threw him out like yesterday's garbage--granted him such power that it took all of the other gods working together to chain him. A small fragment of it is the active ingredient in Asmodeus' ruby rod, which he used to kill He Who Was. In fact, it may be responsible in some small part for the Nine Hells' current corruption.

In short--you know how the Devil and Mephistopheles are represented in a lot of media? That "shard of evil" seems, to me at least, like the Devil to Asmodeus's Mephistopheles. If that's any sort of comprehensible metaphor.

Which of course it isn't. Oh well.

Anyway.

It occurs to me that in the normal 4e cosmology, a world without the Abyss--where all of the horrors in it, completely unharmed and as powerful as ever, have swarmed across all the other planes in an orgy of destruction--might actually be a more hopeful place than the current one. Ragnarok has already happened, and it wasn't as bad as the Norse said it would be.

(a thousand words of unrelated exposition on minor setting metaplot spoilered, for obvious reasons)

----

...but even that last bit is thoroughly off-topic, since Gamerkid's world never had the default 4e cosmology; it went straight on from the Great Wheel to what's basically a broader version of the Diablo universe.

To answer Gamerkid's question: nah, it doesn't look like you're missing anything. It actually sounds like you've got everything right where you want it (and I'd love to play in that setting, by the way). I might recommend you take a look at the Diablo games' setting lore and backstory and environment and concept art and so forth, if you want more inspiration.

[Thajocoth]

...the first problem was putting the world into a dark age(Like 4e assumes a world is in.)...

I don't understand this. The world doesn't seem to me to be in a dark age automatically. The default world seems to me to be scattered such that different places are in different sorts of conditions to allow any sort of situation to be possible to bring up for maximum flexibility.

[Gralamin]

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A small fragment of it is the active ingredient in Asmodeus' ruby rod, which he used to kill He Who Was. In fact, it may be responsible in some small part for the Nine Hells' current corruption.

Whats the source on this bit? Because I know from the Preview books and Divine Power that

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The Nine Hells are as they are because of He Who Was, who trapped Asmodeus in his realm, and changed it to the Nine-Hells with the last of his power

.

[KillianHawkeye]

Actually, the Abyss is a huge deal in the main 4e cosmology. I wouldn't hesitate to call it the single largest threat in the implied setting, even including the Lovecraftian horrors waiting Outside.

It's just that the Abyss is very, very, very far away from the Material Plane in 4e. The Elemental Chaos is infinite and hard to navigate, and the maelstrom of the Abyss--constantly swirling back down toward the all-consuming black hole of unimaginable evil which forms its root--is located at its heart.

But even considering the distance, and the hazards, and the constant metaphysical current flowing back into the Abyss, and the constant infighting of the demons, and the many elemental beings which act as a deterrent and buffer, and the primal spirits which guard the world from extraplanar incursion against even the gods--even considering all of that, the last known deicide was committed by a host of demons. Nerath, the last great empire of the world, was brought down not a century ago by the influence of the Demon Prince of Gnolls. And the black hordes of god-killer Orcus still gather in the valleys of the Shadowfell, in brazen defiance of the deity who rules that place.

The abyssal threat isn't made terribly explicit, but don't think it's not a threat.

I meant the Abyss itself. Obviously, the denizens of the Abyss are a big deal, but they don't have to actually live there to be a threat. I didn't see anything in your post about what's really so important about the place, though.

[Inyssius Tor]

I meant the Abyss itself. Obviously, the denizens of the Abyss are a big deal, but they don't have to actually live there to be a threat. I didn't see anything in your post about what's really so important about the place, though.

Ah! I didn't catch that.

Well, in the normal implied setting (which never existed in Gamerkid's cosmology, so I'm not actually saying anything relevant to the thread itself), the Abyss isn't just where they live--it's their source. It made them, and makes more of them. Also, it's slowly eating the universe. But yeah, in practice, if you're going to be dealing with anything Abyssal, the main threat is obviously going to be the demons themselves.

Whats the source on this bit? Because I know from the Preview books and Divine Power that

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The Nine Hells are as they are because of He Who Was, who trapped Asmodeus in his realm, and changed it to the Nine-Hells with the last of his power

.

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The bit about the Ruby Rod is from... Manual of the Planes and E3: Demon Prince of Undeath, I believe. The bit about how it may have had a small role in the creation of the Nine Hells is personal speculation, given the (not-insignificant) similarities between the two realms and their denizens, and the inherent corruptive nature of the Shard of Evil itself.

[FFTGeist]

Some things your going to have to consider if the abyss is on the material plane and I'll spoiler in my two pennies.

1. Demons are stronger than humans, why haven't they taken over?

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I had demons take over the prime in my campaign world once. A large number of demons could destroy any non capital city. Especially since you said this was "putting the world into a dark age."

Have most races become more nomadic to avoid demons except large cities?

2. What happens to the blood war?

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There is no real reason that the war cant exist but what would the demons do in their free time? Devils plot to overthrow each other. Demons just kill one another. Do they attack the prime instead?

Also where does the blood war take place? The prime? Elemental Chaos? One of the Nine Hells?

3. Do any good aligned lords take up residence on the prime?

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If angels saw demon lords on the prime i don't see why they wouldn't go and create a "forward base" on the prime. Possibly even a kingdom to help the bloods.

4. How does banishment work on the ones that live on the prime?

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The demons could be bound to their demonic kingdoms and revert there when banished.Otherwise they get thrown randomly into the elemental chaos.

5. What happened to that wizard?!?! Anyone strong enough to destroy the abyss could cheat death.

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For the sake of all that is good in the universe he needs to not play a role in anything. If he is there he should be inaccessible to the party, either a hermit, or involved in holding the demons at bay.

I hope that helps, if even a little.

[Coidzor]

Even massively depleted, having the previously infinite demons mostly shunted onto the material, or easily able to get there and then take up native outsider residence from where they were shunted into the astral would still work for throwing the world into a dark age. As it is, it rather strains credible belief that the material plane didn't become yet another battlefield of the blood war, or why only the demons are currently still there without some additional explanation. We imagine the wizard had something to do with all of this after realizing he just blew the place up and the demons got out perfectly fine.

Eberron has some lore about on what it was like for the dragons to shackle the demons and rakhasa lords down in Khyber. Some of which may currently be attempted and some of which may already have been attempted.

And unless there are enough weakling demonkind (including fiendish varieties of animals if those survived the port) around for the appropriate party level, there'll need to be some justification for why they haven't been (almost) killed by x, y, and z.

As it stands... main glaring thing beyond my personal incredulity is determining how the demons are replenishing their numbers. Or if their new finite-ness is part of why the universe is not populated solely by demons now that they've been forced out of the abyss.

[Gamerlord]

Some things your going to have to consider if the abyss is on the material plane and I'll spoiler in my two pennies.

1. Demons are stronger than humans, why haven't they taken over?

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I had demons take over the prime in my campaign world once. A large number of demons could destroy any non capital city. Especially since you said this was "putting the world into a dark age."

Have most races become more nomadic to avoid demons except large cities?

2. What happens to the blood war?

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There is no real reason that the war cant exist but what would the demons do in their free time? Devils plot to overthrow each other. Demons just kill one another. Do they attack the prime instead?

Also where does the blood war take place? The prime? Elemental Chaos? One of the Nine Hells?

3. Do any good aligned lords take up residence on the prime?

Spoiler

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If angels saw demon lords on the prime i don't see why they wouldn't go and create a "forward base" on the prime. Possibly even a kingdom to help the bloods.

4. How does banishment work on the ones that live on the prime?

Spoiler

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The demons could be bound to their demonic kingdoms and revert there when banished.Otherwise they get thrown randomly into the elemental chaos.

5. What happened to that wizard?!?! Anyone strong enough to destroy the abyss could cheat death.

Spoiler

Show

For the sake of all that is good in the universe he needs to not play a role in anything. If he is there he should be inaccessible to the party, either a hermit, or involved in holding the demons at bay.

I hope that helps, if even a little.

1.Because the majority of the remaining natives have either fled to obscure places that the demons don't bother with or holed themselves up in ludicrously large dwarven strongholds.

2.Asmodues is focusing on keeping the new nine hells under control, but he does send armies every now and then to seize some provinces. The blood war mostly takes place in the elemental chaos though, but the demons have the advantage because the devils need to first find the mini-abyss they are looking for. Asmodues also tends to attack the good god's strongholds.


3.Large groups of angels have made bases in the material plane, but the majority are holding off the devils.


4.Being banished causes the demon to be thrown randomly into the elemental chaos.

5.The wizard is dead, the first thing the demon lords did was gang up on him.


Also, demons can still spawn, but not nearly as fast from when the Abyss existed, they tend to spawn in one of the mini-kingdoms, but it takes a looooooong time and the demons lords need to special devices to let them spawn.

[FFTGeist]

Well if you've come up with answers to those issues, i say you take the next step and throw it at the players.
Any new problems will come up and you'll just have to come up with something, or wait and come back to the forum.

Goodluck

[ZeroNumerous]

Well, if you're using the 3.5e cosmology then don't forget one thing:

Demons are there to be fought by devils. That is the entire point behind devils, because it was the original reason Asmodeus fell to evil. So, remove the demons and they now have no real purpose. What do billions of Lawful Evil beings do when they become aimless? You say he's working on controlling the Nine Hells, but even his weakest non-deity form was immensely more powerful than any our devil. In 4e, however, he has become a god.

[FFTGeist]

That is if you are following the Pact Primeval story. There are many other creation myths for D&D. The demons and devils do not have to exclusively war with one another. It felt more like a reason to give one side infinite numbers and explain how they haven't taken over the realm of good.

Since the Demons (CE) are being battled by angels (LG).
The Devils (LE) might focus their energy on destroying the Eladrin (CG).