[3.5] An issue of Reach...

[Thunder Hammer]

This is something that has been bothering me. What is the effective reach of a Medium sized creature using a Large reach weapon (say a spiked chain)? Is it 10/15/ or 20ft?

Also, if the enlarge spell is then cast on them, now a large creature with a gargantuan weapon, what is the effective reach? Any help would be great, esp a pointer to a piece of errata or a particular rulebook would be awesome :)

[ex cathedra]

Reach, as I recall, is based on creature size rather than weapon size. The answer to your first question is 10ft. One size increase would increase your base reach to 10, which the chain would double.

[Coidzor]

^: We believe that a reach weapon in the hands of a large creature with a natural reach of 10 would make that creature have a reach of 15 rather than a reach of 20.

If there is a passage about reach weapons doubling a creature's natural reach, we would be very interested in seeing it though. Nevermind, found it ourselves. x.x

This is something that has been bothering me. What is the effective reach of a Medium sized creature using a Large reach weapon (say a spiked chain)? Is it 10/15/ or 20ft?

Also, if the enlarge spell is then cast on them, now a large creature with a gargantuan weapon, what is the effective reach? Any help would be great, esp a pointer to a piece of errata or a particular rulebook would be awesome :)

The sizing of a weapon only affects whether or not a charcter can use it with a penalty, use it without penalty, or be unable to use it at all.

A medium character with a Great Sword sized for a Gargauntuan creature (to take an example of a certain titan-blooded character option) is still only able to threaten his normal reach despite wielding a weapon larger than he is.

The reach is keyed off of the creature's size and reach, not the weapon's size.

Reach Weapons

Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, spiked chains, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him or her. Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.

Note: Small and Medium creatures wielding reach weapons threaten all squares 10 feet (2 squares) away, even diagonally. (This is an exception to the rule that 2 squares of diagonal distance is measured as 15 feet.)

[jmbrown]

When calculating the range of a reach weapon, you have to count the last square you normally threaten. A large creature with a spiked chain threatens 15' (his 2nd square counts as 5' and the spiked chain extends that for an additional 5').

[tyckspoon]

When calculating the range of a reach weapon, you have to count the last square you normally threaten. A large creature with a spiked chain threatens 15' (his 2nd square counts as 5' and the spiked chain extends that for an additional 5').

How do you come to that conclusion? The rules usually allow you to start counting distance from whichever edge/intersection of your space you want. 'course, the actual rules for counting space tend to be really hard to find, so if you know where they actually are, please do quote and/or provide a page reference. I'd like to bookmark it.

[UserClone]

Actually, a Large creature enjoys a natural 5-10ft reach. A Large creature using a(n appropriately sized) reach weapon enjoys a 15-20 ft reach. With a(n appropriately sized) spiked chain, a Large creature can reach 5,10,15, or 20ft, at his option. ****ing sweet, except that the whole notion of a spiked chain is friggin' retarded, IMO.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Actually, a Large creature enjoys a natural 5-10ft reach. A Large creature using a(n appropriately sized) reach weapon enjoys a 15-20 ft reach. With a(n appropriately sized) spiked chain, a Large creature can reach 5,10,15, or 20ft, at his option. ****ing sweet, except that the whole notion of a spiked chain is friggin' retarded, IMO.

It's roughly based on this weapon. Roughly.

[Thunder Hammer]

The reach is keyed off of the creature's size and reach, not the weapon's size.

Thanks for that link, it clears everything up for me! :)

[jmbrown]

How do you come to that conclusion? The rules usually allow you to start counting distance from whichever edge/intersection of your space you want. 'course, the actual rules for counting space tend to be really hard to find, so if you know where they actually are, please do quote and/or provide a page reference. I'd like to bookmark it.

Thumbing through the books, RAW does say large creatures using reach weapons double their natural range. However, it also says that only small and medium creatures benefit from threatening diagonal spaces using a reach weapon.

Large or larger creatures using reach weapons can strike up to double their natural reach but can’t strike at their natural reach or less.

Note: Small and Medium creatures wielding reach weapons threaten all squares 10 feet (2 squares) away, even diagonally. (This is an exception to the rule that 2 squares of diagonal distance is measured as 15 feet.)

It also says a large creature has to have a reach weapon of his size to benefit from the extra reach.

Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.

Still, this is something I didn't know and I'm now curious why every large or larger creature doesn't wield reach weapons by default especially since the majority of them have natural attacks. If a hill giant threatens 20' and can still benefit from his slam there's absolutely no reason why they wouldn't all be equipped with something as cheap and commonly available as a longspear.

Apparently the salamander is the only large creature that has the bright idea.

[UserClone]

It's roughly based on this weapon. Roughly.

Uh, I rest my case. That is a wildly stupid method of trying to kill someone. A real kusari-gama has much, much smaller weights, and you really do use the chain to choke and entangle or strike blows with the weights (on both ends of the chain), but there are no blades, and there was no huge ball of metal like that. It would make it really unwieldy and difficult to swing fast enough to not just get decapitated by the smart guy who just thought of using a sword. In fact, I am still unconvinced that a real fight between wielders of those respective weapons would have lasted remotely that long (of course, it's an action movie, and so it's forgivable. I still don't like the weapon in my medieval fantasy game).

[jmbrown]

Uh, I rest my case. That is a wildly stupid method of trying to kill someone. A real kusari-gama has much, much smaller weights, and you really do use the chain to choke and entangle or strike blows with the weights (on both ends of the chain), but there are no blades, and there was no huge ball of metal like that. It would make it really unwieldy and difficult to swing fast enough to not just get decapitated by the smart guy who just thought of using a sword. In fact, I am still unconvinced that a real fight between wielders of those respective weapons would have lasted remotely that long (of course, it's an action movie, and so it's forgivable. I still don't like the weapon in my medieval fantasy game).

I'm sure it also doesn't contain a magic button (concealed on the chain itself) that causes spikes to protrude from the weights.

[UserClone]

True I mentioned the blades, but not the magic remote control button that causes them to protrude.

[KillianHawkeye]

A real kusari-gama has much, much smaller weights, and you really do use the chain to choke and entangle or strike blows with the weights (on both ends of the chain), but there are no blades, and there was no huge ball of metal like that.

NOTE: A kusari-gama does actually have a blade (see: Kama), but it's not at all like that weapon in Kill Bill.

[Signmaker]

and there was no huge ball of metal like that.

Cinematic Weapon Hybrids never make sense.

[Xzeno]

It's roughly based on this weapon. Roughly.

I always assumed that by "spiked chain" they meant steel whip. I have seen steel whips used to a degree of effectiveness. Making it spiky would, of course, make it impossible to use properly.