(3.x) Spells That Shouldn't Have Changed

[Deth Muncher]

So, I'm thinking, there's got to be spells that just shouldn't have been updated when 3.5 came around. Specifically, Haste comes to mind, because who doesn't love actions? Now, I realize it was probably changed because of CharOppers who go and bust the game wide open, but for casual games, shouldn't the 3.0 version be ok?

I know there's got to be more, which is where you come in.

[SurlySeraph]

I wish they hadn't added in safeguards to any spells. 3.5 Fly activates a Feather Fall effect if it ends while you're airborne. 2E fly just dropped you. 2E Wish and Haste could take years off your lifespan. I prefer for magic to be powerful but risky; 3E doesn't do the "risky" part.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Haste is broken because the most valuable resource in a game is actions. I recently had a char die because I couldn't spare the standard action to refill health. When you can cast a 3rd level spell and get a free action every round, including the one you cast it in, it's broken. Heck, look at the hatred for Celerity, a 4th level spell that gives you a single free action and costs your next turn.

I wish Fireball and Lightning bolt still rewarded math majors. Those are fun.

[Optimystik]

I wish they had kept Crushing Despair and Good Hope as Emotion - it would make it more obvious that Calm Emotions could affect them both. It would have also been nice if Calm Emotions could counter those and other spells like them, such as Bless.

I also miss 3.0 Harm and Heal. Two-shotting dragons and vampires never got old for my cleric.

So, I'm thinking, there's got to be spells that just shouldn't have been updated when 3.5 came around. Specifically, Haste comes to mind, because who doesn't love actions? Now, I realize it was probably changed because of CharOppers who go and bust the game wide open, but for casual games, shouldn't the 3.0 version be ok?

3.0 Haste is broken no matter who uses it. Consider the Celerity line - the fact that they made 3.0 Haste non-core, split it into three separate spells AND added a drawback to each one, and it was still broken, gives you an idea of how broken 3.0 Haste really was.

I wish they hadn't added in safeguards to any spells. 3.5 Fly activates a Feather Fall effect if it ends while you're airborne. 2E fly just dropped you. 2E Wish and Haste could take years off your lifespan. I prefer for magic to be powerful but risky; 3E doesn't do the "risky" part.

YMMV on the Fly bit, but I didn't see much point in causing the other two to age you. Most games I've seen never actually dealt with characters aging. In fact, the way aging works in 3.5, a caster speeding his way up to Venerable would just make him stronger. Sure he'd die sooner, but that's what Clones, Simulacra, and Reincarnation are for.

[Zeta Kai]

Haste is broken because the most valuable resource in a game is actions.

For the record, actions are the game's second-most valuable resource. The most valuable are feats. Just sayin'.

[BobVosh]

For the record, actions are the game's second-most valuable resource. The most valuable are feats. Just sayin'.

This is why fighters are the best class in the game?

I would give up every feat for the ability to get one extra action whenever I want. Much less a feat like heroic surge in various games where you get 1 + 1/4 Levels extra standard actions.

[Optimystik]

Let's not have this degenerate into a "Feats aren't better than actions!" "Nuh-uh!" debate.

One that confused me was Flame Arrow, which had both its functionality and school changed - while Acid Arrow (Melf's, to be precise) stayed the same. Perhaps they knew Conjuration would be getting the (flame) orbs anyway?

[Eldariel]

Flame Arrow is better as it stands anyways. Gives Archers a bone. Meh. The old one was just a really bad Fireball.

Well, from AD&D, I think there are VARIOUS spells that shouldn't have changed. Well, most of them, frankly. They were risky, expensive and so on and that reined in their power. Polymorph, Shapechange, Time Stop, Gate, Planar Binding, just a laundry list of busted 3.X spells was notably more fair in their 2e Guise since the DAMN SPELLS HAD RISKS (or costs and short durations in the case of Shapechange and Time Stop). 3.0 to 3.5, well, splitting Polymorph Other makes little sense, but other than that, I think the changes were mostly for the better. 3.5 Haste is a very useful and interesting spell, 3.0 Haste is the best spell in the game (it'd be a VERY good 9th level spell...but someone decided it's a THIRD level one).

Animal Growth became slightly less busted, Heal became slightly more reasonable (although alongside comes the problem of epic play where there's no way to heal a meaningful chunk of HP), Harm change is necessary as a counterpart, Cat's Grace-line becoming not-all-day was awesome (though the variable boost was more interesting), etc. The one huge mistake they made, making Polymorph even MORE broken, got errata'd into oblivion. That said, the spell is still broken, but at least slightly less so than the original 3.5 print.

[Zaydos]

They also made Shapechange more broken and the Orb spells conjuration (although SR no is arguably good, they are one of the few decent blast spells and in the end there are times you just need a decent blast spell) which is a large part of the Conjuration does Evocation better than Evocation does argument.

[PhoenixRivers]

In fairness, Celerity isn't broken because it gives you an extra action. Celerity is broken because it gives you an extra action exactly when you want it. The interrupt factor is what makes Celerity crazy.

Haste? For melee, it's alright at the 3.0 version. Offered some minor advantages, such as dramatically increasing your move+attack range, opening up the ability to move+full attack, and the like. It was breakable, but not too bad.

Where it got bad was when it was used where it was gained easiest. Casters. Doubling your spell output in future rounds, and essentially casting itself for free on its round (as the extra standard action lets you cast something else), it gave casters, even non-optimized casters, a crazy boost in power. While melee could get some extra mobility, or 1 extra attack, casters effectively doubled their power output per round, and gained mobility.

That's why haste was bad. And WotC learned from their mistake, and fixed it.

Then made it again with Schism, for psionics.

[Jeramiahh]

I wish they had kept Crushing Despair and Good Hope as Emotion - it would make it more obvious that Calm Emotions could affect them both. It would have also been nice if Calm Emotions could counter those and other spells like them, such as Bless.

Actually, Calm Emotions does negate all of those spells, listed. Maybe not counter as in Counterspell, but it negates all morale bonuses and penalties, while in effect.

This spell (Calm Emotions) automatically suppresses (but does not dispel) any morale bonuses granted by spells such as bless, good hope, and rage, as well as negating a bard’s ability to inspire courage or a barbarian’s rage ability. It also suppresses any fear effects and removes the confused condition from all targets.

[Optimystik]

Then made it again with Schism, for psionics.

On the subject of fairness, Schism is a lot harder to break "out of the box."
Key differences between Schism and 3.0 Haste:

1) You don't get the extra action until the round after you manifest it;
2) Your secondary mind can't control your body, so you only get purely mental actions;
3) Your secondary mind is 6 CL below your primary for the purposes of manifesting powers.
4) Mind-affecting effects end your schism immediately if you fail a save, even if you make the second save.
5) It only affects you,
6) Only Telepaths (or Erudites) can use it without EK. (Though it is a very handy power to EK for.)

Breaking it requires using purely mental actions that aren't manifesting powers, such as still+silent spells for a Cerebremancer, or Psi-like, Spell-like and Supernatural abilities. The benefit is potent, but the restrictions are still quite tough.

Actually, Calm Emotions does negate all of those spells, listed. Maybe not counter as in Counterspell, but it negates all morale bonuses and penalties, while in effect.

I know that. I said it would make it more obvious, not that it would make it possible.

I also know that it doesn't counter them - I was merely saying it should.

[PhoenixRivers]

On the subject of fairness, Schism is a lot harder to break "out of the box."
Key differences between Schism and 3.0 Haste:

1) You don't get the extra action until the round after you manifest it;

Correct. That doesn't make it much less potent, with the other action advantage powers psions get. Anticipatory Strike, for example, makes that next round happen immediately.

2) Your secondary mind can't control your body, so you only get purely mental actions;

Powers are mental.

3) Your secondary mind is 6 CL below your primary for the purposes of manifesting powers.

So? There are a host of low-mid level powers that are very effective with low augmentation. Practiced Manifester can mitigate the -6 (YMMV, check with your DM). Overchannel can further mitigate.

4) Mind-affecting effects end your schism immediately if you fail a save, even if you make the second save.

Note: Mind-affecting effects that you fail a save against generally end combat for you, at best. At worst, they turn you against the party. This isn't a restriction. This is a second chance at redemption.

On the even brighter side? It's a failsafe. If you are dominated? At least you're not pulling double actions anymore.

5) It only affects you,

You are the one that'd get the best use of it anyway.

6) Only Telepaths (or Erudites) can use it without EK. (Though it is a very handy power to EK for.)

There's always 1 discipline power you'll take EK for. Whether you're a telepath that takes is for Astral Construct, or a Shaper that takes it for Schism, the end result is the same.

Breaking it requires using purely mental actions that aren't manifesting powers, such as still+silent spells for a Cerebremancer, or Psi-like, Spell-like and Supernatural abilities. The benefit is potent, but the restrictions are still quite tough.

The benefit is extra actions. Weaker powers, etc? Irrelevant. There are many good powers that don't need augmenting. Most Standard action item activations are mental. Many feat activations are mental. Essentially, it gives you a free action to do what you wouldn't want to waste actions doing.

In other words? Yes, it is harder to break. Instead of taking no optimization to double your power, it takes light optimization to double your power.

[Roc Ness]

Note: Mind-affecting effects that you fail a save against generally end combat for you, at best. At worst, they turn you against the party. This isn't a restriction. This is a second chance at redemption.

Aren't Good Hope, Heroism and Bardic Music boosts Mind-affecting?

I can't remember, but is a Paladin's Aura of Courage also Mind Affecting? Because that would cause a lot of problems for Schism users with Paladin buddies.

[PhoenixRivers]

Aren't Good Hope, Heroism and Bardic Music boosts Mind-affecting?

I can't remember, but is a Paladin's Aura of Courage also Mind Affecting?

Well, provided you choose to Forego the save for Good Hope and Heroism, you're fine.

Yes, Aura of Courage is. However, it, like bardic buffs, doesn't allow a save. No schism interference.

[Optimystik]

In other words? Yes, it is harder to break. Instead of taking no optimization to double your power, it takes light optimization to double your power.

My point, which you supported, was that Schism is weaker than 3.0 Haste. No need for a point-by-point dissection.

[PhoenixRivers]

My point, which you supported, was that Schism is weaker than 3.0 Haste. No need for a point-by-point dissection.

And my point is that that's irrelevant. The exact thing that made haste bad is replicated in Schism.

The mistake was a low-level power/spell that, out of the box, doubled the powers/spells a caster could sling in a round.

Haste did that in 3.0? Check.
Schism does that in 3.5? Check.

Hence, mistake repeated.

[Optimystik]

Hence, mistake repeated.

Did I ever say it wasn't a mistake?

I get the feeling you're trying to start an argument out of thin air, here.

[PhoenixRivers]

Did I ever say it wasn't a mistake?

I get the feeling you're trying to start an argument out of thin air, here.

No. You just misrepresented the power. I corrected you. No argument that I can see.

The benefits are potent, as you sad... The restrictions, however, are about as tough as yogurt.

Breaking it requires much less than mental actions that aren't powers, and even those mental actions that do fit that? Are easier to get than you ascribed.

Many of the "restrictions" you posted are handwaved away with a single feat, which are, in some cases, in the base psionic book.

One of the others? Is actually an extra benefit that the spell gives you, and you market it as a tough restriction.

I'm not saying that schism is exactly the same as haste. I'm not marketing that Schism and Haste are identical in power. Did I ever say that they were?

All I stated is that haste and schism share the same fundamental mistake. You saw fit to attempt to clarify my statements with misinformation. I'm correcting that. No arguement. I'm merely clarifying what you said, so that it's actually accurate.

[Optimystik]

I still don't see how "Schism is weaker than 3.0 Haste" is a misrepresentation. It might not be a great deal weaker, but it is still weaker.

I do agree with you on the mind-affecting bit, and hadn't thought of the feature that way, but the basic statement still stands.

[PhoenixRivers]

I still don't see how "Schism is weaker than 3.0 Haste" is a misrepresentation. It might not be a great deal weaker, but it is still weaker.

I do agree with you on the mind-affecting bit, and hadn't thought of the feature that way, but the basic statement still stands.

The basic statement, yes. 80% of the supporting points? Not so much. Therein lies the misrepresentation.

[Optimystik]

Well, I suppose you could pick 80% of the nits out of anything, without changing the conclusion one bit. Regardless, both our post counts have at least gone up through this highly useful exchange.

[PhoenixRivers]

Well, I suppose you could pick 80% of the nits out of anything, without changing the conclusion one bit. Regardless, both our post counts have at least gone up through this highly useful exchange.

The conclusion was accurate, as you had 1 solid point.

I can say: Gold is more valuable than lead.

Supporting arguments:
1) Gold has a listed value in world markets that is higher than lead, as well as more commercial applications.
2) Lead causes cancer.
3) Gold paint is more common than lead based paint.

Now, the primary argument is true. So is supporting point 1. The last two points are outright false.

So it is with your point. Your general statement is true. There are a limited number of supporting points that are accurate, but the majority of it is out-and-out disinformation.

I'll accept the general point as true, and the correct supports as true. I'll clarify the exaggerations, as well. Finally, I'll contradict the false statements. I did all of this in the point by point. (and yes, I did all of these in that post... which you dismissed out-of-hand, on the grounds that it responded to your points one at a time.)

[Optimystik]

I didn't dismiss it. I said it wasn't necessary, as it really doesn't change the underlying conclusion.

Regardless, I think we derailed this to the point of silliness a couple of posts back. Feel free to get the last word in if you like, I'm out.

[PhoenixRivers]

I didn't dismiss it. I said it wasn't necessary, as it really doesn't change the underlying conclusion.

So, with your repeated impressions that I was disagreeing with your conclusion, you felt the preceding post conceding that your overall point was correct was unneccessary (but that the majority of your reasons for that were either exaggerated or outright false)?

Regardless, the corrections were to make sure that others understood the basic underpinnings of the power, rather than taking your inaccurate and exaggerated statements at face value.

Basically? My post 15 answered your post 20, 5 posts early. It outlined what the misrepresentations were, and exactly disagreed with the point you made in post 20. Thus, the only conclusion I can draw is that you disregarded it. If you hadn't, you wouldn't have come in on post 20 with confusion, under the impression that I was saying the exact opposite of what I said in post 15.

[jmbrown]

I'm surprised no one mentioned rope trick. It used to be 20 minutes per level, not an effing hour per level. Even a 20th level wizard couldn't use rope trick to hide out until he rested and prepared his spells.

[taltamir]

Haste is broken because the most valuable resource in a game is actions. I recently had a char die because I couldn't spare the standard action to refill health. When you can cast a 3rd level spell and get a free action every round, including the one you cast it in, it's broken. Heck, look at the hatred for Celerity, a 4th level spell that gives you a single free action and costs your next turn.

I wish Fireball and Lightning bolt still rewarded math majors. Those are fun.

yes... haste is worhwhile as a 9th level spell... it is on par with timestop
it gives CL allies 1 extra action per round for CL rounds.

And the reason it can't be used for spells, is not char ops, its because spells are crazy in DnD... with things like save or die / lose.

[ericgrau]

Rope trick has a dozen other drawbacks that keep it from high level play. Your DM needs to set up a WoW-verse where drawbacks are ignored and monsters are mindless, then problems arise.

[taltamir]

Rope trick has a dozen other drawbacks that keep it from high level play. Your DM needs to set up a WoW-verse where drawbacks are ignored and monsters are mindless, then problems arise.

such as? it is invisible and undetectable (barring mid-high level magic spells)... when you are high enough level for this to matter, you just teleport in and out of encounters.