shouldn't cha determine will?

[taltamir]

I never got why wis gives will saves, since wisdom is "common sense" and "intuition" while cha is literally a combination of "willpower" and "beauty". Will power doesn't help your will saves against spells any, neither does intelligence (resist mind affecting spells with your intellect?)... only thing that helps is your common sense and intuition.

[Optimystik]

Wisdom represents perception and intuition - therefore, it's the most logical choice for resisting an affect that tries to manipulate your thoughts or deceive your senses.

Charisma helps you assert yourself, but doesn't give you the whole "something doesn't seem right" that you would need to resist a whisper in the back of your head, or the jerkiness of an illusion's movements.

[World Eater]

Willpower is part of Charisma? Where'd that come from?

[Morty]

Willpower is part of Charisma? Where'd that come from?

Ever since WoTC realized a social stat isn't going to see much use in a combat-centered game and started making up new uses for it.

[Eloel]

Wisdom describes a character’s willpower

Here

So, nope, willpower is Wisdom.

[Sanguine]

Here

So, nope, willpower is Wisdom.

This.

But admittedly Forse of Personality comes extremely close to Willpower.

[Eloel]

This.

But admittedly Forse of Personality comes extremely close to Willpower.

It comes closer with the feat Force of Personality, which substitutes Cha for Wis to Will saves.

[Sanguine]

It comes closer with the feat Force of Personality, which substitutes Cha for Wis to Will saves.

But only against certain effects.(That part always bugged me)

[jmbrown]

Wisdom is will power. Charisma is the force of your will. A shy person can be strong of mind and an outgoing person can be weak willed.

[bosssmiley]

If D&D was logical, then the answer would be "yes, probably". However, D&D is not logical and has 30+ years of systemic baggage and sacred cows weighing it down.

Cha as-Gygax-intended can be best understood by references to the WFRP 1E stats Leadership and Fellowship (how good you are at keeping your minions in line, and how good you are at fast-talking/soft-soaping people).

Cha is supposed to be the "get your way with talk" stat in a wargame-derived RPG about leading expeditions into unknown lands and/or ancient underworlds, nothing more, nothing less.

[Optimystik]

Cha is supposed to be the "get your way with talk" stat in a wargame-derived RPG about leading expeditions into unknown lands and/or ancient underworlds, nothing more, nothing less.

But that doesn't stop its other uses in 3.5 from making sense - powering spells and abilities that depend on emotion, rather than discipline and learning.

[Swordgleam]

In 4e, Will is determined by both Cha and Wis. You add the modifier for whichever is higher.

[taltamir]

But that doesn't stop its other uses in 3.5 from making sense - powering spells and abilities that depend on emotion, rather than discipline and learning.

"altering reality by raw force of will" so to speak? :)

yes, I would say it is baggage. it started out as "looks" and mutated into willpower.

In 4e, Will is determined by both Cha and Wis. You add the modifier for whichever is higher.

interesting...

[Yuki Akuma]

interesting...

And Fort is Str or Con, and Ref is Dex or Int. (As is AC.)

It at least gives each stat importance, unlike in 3.5 where Dex, Con and Will outweighed Str and Cha by quite a bit for most builds.

[taltamir]

And Fort is Str or Con, and Ref is Dex or Int. (As is AC.)

It at least gives each stat importance, unlike in 3.5 where Dex, Con and Will outweighed Str and Cha by quite a bit for most builds.

yes they do, and yes it does... frankly I think that is something worth backporting into 3.5 from 4.0

[ericgrau]

cha determines what goes out from you, wis determines what comes to you.

[oxybe]

logically, it would be opposed by different stats depending on the effect and desired result...

logically, that is. but D&D tends to say "i'm logical!" then giggle like a schoolgirl at it's joke.

MST3K mantra needs to be applied to D&D's logic: "It's just a show game, i should really just relax." don't think too hard, and just try to have fun.

[Sir_Elderberry]

Charisma is more about how you project your will than how strong that will is.

That said, I still think it makes more sense for Will saves than Wisdom, and I think 4e got the ability-to-defense system right.

[Devils_Advocate]

Resisting internal urges is not the same thing as convincing others, and neither is the same thing as refusing to let other people boss you around. You could make a case for basing "social defense" off of either Cha or Wis, but it makes more sense for non-social willpower to be based off the sanity stat than the persuasiveness stat.

Charisma lets you persuade others to go along with whatever you feel like doing; it doesn't keep you from feeling like doing crazy things. That's why high-Cha, low-Wis individuals are... problematic.

[Thurbane]

3E had this daft notion that both WIS and CHA represent willpower. I prefer the earlier edition midset that WIS is willpower and inner strength, and CHA is persuasiveness and beauty.

[Nai_Calus]

Charisma lets you persuade others to go along with whatever you feel like doing; it doesn't keep you from feeling like doing crazy things. That's why high-Cha, low-Wis individuals are... problematic.

See: Every Bard ever, and most of the Swashbucklers.

When I ran 3.5 I brought in 4E-style attributes to saves. Fort, Ref and Will saves used whichever was higher of the two stats that went with the save. Not solely because it makes more sense to me, also to try to help with my personal feelings that 3.x's save system is inherently completely broken by being so binary. I thought about making bad/good saves a +9/+12 progression instead of +6/+12 but never got around to it.

[J.Gellert]

Maybe only against some Charm/Domination effects. I'd play with that houserule.

Certainly not against Illusions and the like.

[Draz74]

3E had this daft notion that both WIS and CHA represent willpower. I prefer the earlier edition midset that WIS is willpower and inner strength, and CHA is persuasiveness and beauty.

Yeah, the traditional six stats have been blurred together until "willpower" and "force of personality" -- which aren't very separable IMHO -- are represented by separate stats.

My favored solution is to scrap Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma with three new mental stats (I use Intellect, Perception, and Wit) that are easier to differentiate and more universally useful.

A perfectly fine houserule, however, is to base Will saves on Charisma -- AND Initiative on Wisdom (or else wisdom will become a dump stat for most characters; even still it may be iffy).

[Devils_Advocate]

I could see combining Charisma and Wisdom into a single "street smarts" stat. This would probably be difficult to implement well as a house-rule to an existing system, though. More the sort of thing that one might choose to do if building a DnD clone from the ground up.

[Swordgleam]

D&D tends to say "i'm logical!" then giggle like a schoolgirl at it's joke.

I might have to steal that line.

I really like the way 4e does defenses. It makes sense to me that Charisma is part of Will if you think of Charisma as being not just prettiness, but "force of personality." You can have force of personality, resist mental domination, and still make very poor decisions. (That sounds like most of my friends, now that I think of it.)

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Perhaps Cha should go to spell DCs.

[Optimystik]

The 4e way of handling stats is superior and has the side effect of eliminating lots of MAD. I don't see how you can have high CON and still be weak anyway, or vice-versa - same with WIS and CHA.

[The Deej]

I don't see how you can have high CON and still be weak anyway, or vice-versa - same with WIS and CHA.

High CON low STR is like a distance runner. Low upper body strength, so he can't lift much, but what he can he can carry all day.

High STR low CON is akin to a high jumper (which are usually sprinters). Impressive feats of strength (jumping), but they are best fit to do it in short bursts.

High WIS low CHA is the geek who can spot the counterfeit baseball card being traded on the playground, but can't work up the nerve to tell the guy twice his size that he just got cheated.

High CHA low WIS is Elan. 'Nuff said.

[Swordgleam]

High X low Y is...

We having a saying among my group of friends whenever someone smart does something stupid - "High Int, low Wis." (This might also explain why people don't like to be seen in public with us.)

[Optimystik]

High CON low STR is like a distance runner. Low upper body strength, so he can't lift much, but what he can he can carry all day.

High STR low CON is akin to a high jumper (which are usually sprinters). Impressive feats of strength (jumping), but they are best fit to do it in short bursts.

High WIS low CHA is the geek who can spot the counterfeit baseball card being traded on the playground, but can't work up the nerve to tell the guy twice his size that he just got cheated.

High CHA low WIS is Elan. 'Nuff said.

That's fine in terms of what you can do, but not in terms of what you can handle - i.e. saving throws.

Both the distance runner and the high jumper should be equally good (or equally bad) at fort saves, for example staying warm, yet in D&D one will do better vs. cold than the other for no reason.

Similarly, someone perceptive and someone assertive should both be able to defeat external mental manipulation with ease. Likewise, someone intelligent would rely on his knowledge to anticipate an explosion, whereas someone dextrous would rely on his reflexes.

4e's system is far superior and should have been in D&D ever since the saving throw was first introduced.