The bard

[Doomboy911]

He's supposed to be the king of support classes (wish someone told me this beforehand). Now this is good because I'll be helpful but theres still a portion of me that wants to actual do some damage on the guy. Whether it be through some prestige class or multiclassing. I want to know what can I do to make the bard a better bard I want to be able to attack (weapon or magic will work) and still support.What should I do?

(Also I thought multiclassing in ranger and monk to get some martial and exotic weapons may help would it?)

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Dragonfire Inspiration seems like the logical route.

[evil-frosty]

Sublime Chord is a great prestige class for casting. And then if you take the feat melodic casting you can sing and cast at the same time.

[Doomboy911]

I do like dragonfire inspiration because I can take some levels in being a dragon.So I can fight and cast as a part dragon.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Bardblade and Bardadin builds can do it, which requires multiclassing to something with full BAB, but is generally awesome.

[Ecalsneerg]

(Also I thought multiclassing in ranger and monk to get some martial and exotic weapons may help would it?)

There are very few classes for whom multiclassing into monk would help.

Most of them are Tashalatora Psychic Warriors. None of them are Bards. Ranger... you're not getting really much from it. It could work, but the synergy is essentially "both like light armour, both like skills"

[Amphetryon]

*insert obligatory Bard + Factotum synergy reference*

[Thurbane]

There is a little synergy with a Ranger's favored enemy and a "face man" type Bard. He gets his FE bonus on Bluff and Sense motive, but it's probably not worth multiclassing for.

[ex cathedra]

Dragonfire Inspiration, Snowflake Wardance, Slippers of Battledancing, Song of the White Raven, Words of Creation, and Harmonizing Crystal Echoblades come to mind. Bards can become melee powerhouses with minimal investment, to be honest. It's not much straight damage when compared to lightly optimized chargers, but in martial-heavy groups the DFI damage quickly becomes overwhelming.

[ericgrau]

Pump strength and grab a whip. You're proficient. Works best on humanoids though. Or use offensive effect spells like glitterdust, silence (on casters, or in their general area to give no save), grease, etc. Invisibility and haste are cool too. You're also a skillmonkey but that's a support thing. Unless you grab knowledge skills and keep asking "What breaks its DR? What energies does it resist? Other weaknesses/abilities?" Look up the knowledge rules, find the creatures you tend to fight, and pick the matching skills.

As for actual weapon damage, yeah you need a splatbook for that. But don't underestimate the offensive power of the above compared to damage.

[Aldizog]

Besides the actual information gained from Knowledge checks, Knowledge Devotion can add quite a bit to a bard's combat ability. The synergy with Ranger would be if you had a favored enemy for which Ranger didn't offer that Knowledge as a class skill and wanted the extra boost from Knowledge Devotion. Both classes would let you advance your stealth skills if you wanted. Were one to look at that combination, might want to take a non-casting Ranger variant so you can dump Wis. And possibly Bardic Sage to at least reduce the Cha dependence.

Not a normal or "optimal" combination, but could be interesting.

I'm less a fan of DragonFire Inspiration because a) the damage is energy, and b) you're losing the attack bonus. Attack bonuses can be a LOT more important than damage bonuses (i.e., it's not always worth doing Full Power Attack even if you're getting 3-for-1). If you do take it, only actually invoke the dragonfire against foes with no resistance to that energy AND with relatively low AC compared to your party's attack bonuses.

[KitTheOdd]

Bard 4/Warblade or Crusader X/Jade Phoenix Mage X

Song of the White Raven feat

It is working great for me.

[ex cathedra]

I'm less a fan of DragonFire Inspiration because a) the damage is energy, and b) you're losing the attack bonus. Attack bonuses can be a LOT more important than damage bonuses (i.e., it's not always worth doing Full Power Attack even if you're getting 3-for-1). If you do take it, only actually invoke the dragonfire against foes with no resistance to that energy AND with relatively low AC compared to your party's attack bonuses.

Sonic energy is fairly rarely resisted, and bards have decent AB, all things considered. Additionally, the AB:Damage ratio is something like 1:3.5, which is quite nice.

[Nhoj]

You could be a bard/rogue with melodic casting and subsonics feats. The latter allows you to sing quietly so your enemies won't notice but your allies still gain the effects of your bard song.

[Doomboy911]

Well we already have a rogue. Party wise we have an artificer, a warforged barbarian, a shifter rogue, a druid , and a changeling paladin. Now I'm open to any kind of modification especially taking some steps in the monster way like the dragon blood. The only reason I'm after ranger is for the proficiency with some extra weapons that aren't open to the bard like a bow and arrow.So just because of these echo blades I have to ask what book are they in?.

[Aldizog]

Sonic energy is fairly rarely resisted, and bards have decent AB, all things considered. Additionally, the AB:Damage ratio is something like 1:3.5, which is quite nice.

DFI does fire by default, and you need another feat to make it sonic, right? So two feats to enable a 1:2.5 tradeoff, since you're also giving up the morale bonus to damage from a standard Inspire Courage. I do think that 1:2.5 is a trade often worth taking, but not necessarily every swing of every combat, particularly when you have iteratives. As with PA, estimate if it's worth it based on how often you're hitting and for how much damage. If it seems like the TWF rogue usually hits on 40% of all attacks, and does about 30 damage per hit, then that rogue would do better with +3 to hit and damage than with +3d6 damage.

Now, I don't know if you can stack a normal Inspire Courage and then the next round a DFI effect. If the DM allows that, it might be a really good option. Also unclear to me is whether a DM would allow a masterwork mandolin to boost DFI.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Now, I don't know if you can stack a normal Inspire Courage and then the next round a DFI effect. If the DM allows that, it might be a really good option. Also unclear to me is whether a DM would allow a masterwork mandolin to boost DFI.

You can. It's specifically called out that you can choose which to use, so just do one after the other, and wait for the durations to run out.

[Tyger]

Now, I don't know if you can stack a normal Inspire Courage and then the next round a DFI effect. If the DM allows that, it might be a really good option. Also unclear to me is whether a DM would allow a masterwork mandolin to boost DFI.

Well, if the DM doesn't allow both of these, then they are houseruling things. Per RAW, both are possible. Any Inspire Courage's effects last as long as you sing + 5 rounds. So you can set up one version of the ability, then start singing the other. Badaboom, +x to hit and damage, and +xd6 in elemental damage.

And the DFI damage dice are based directly off your bonus to hit from Inspire Courage. If the masterwork mandolin doesn't work, then neither do Song of the Heart, Badge of Courage, etc, etc.

If you have a party that is missing abyssimally, then yes, you are likely right on the proper version to sing. But if everyone (and that party's meleers shouldn't be having trouble) is doing OK in that regard, adding in the elemental damage is a huge benefit.

[mabriss lethe]

I wish I could add more, but all the big ideas are already mentioned.

If you're trying to qualify for DFI and you're a bit feat starved, try silverbrow human. still gets the human bonus feat, and counts as dragonblooded for getting DFI.

[Keld Denar]

Getting Sonic DFI requires 3 feats. 1 for DFI, 1 for Dragontouched to count as a 1st level sorcerer to fulfill the requirement on Draconic Heritage, and Draconic Heritage for something like Battle Dragon, Steel Dragon, or Pyroclastic Dragon.

[Aldizog]

If you have a party that is missing abyssimally, then yes, you are likely right on the proper version to sing. But if everyone (and that party's meleers shouldn't be having trouble) is doing OK in that regard, adding in the elemental damage is a huge benefit.

They really don't have to be missing all that often with their main attacks for an attack bonus to make a big difference; it's the iteratives and PA that you have to consider. The math can be surprising. The reason why DFI looks so great is the same reason the bard's basic Inspire Courage is often underestimated; the effect of damage bonuses is easily seen, but the effect of attack bonuses is less obvious and generally greater.

Secondary combatants (rogues [especially TWF], bards, mounts, animal companions, cohorts, summons) will need the attack bonus more. A primary combatant might prefer the damage bonus, but it's a wash for a THW user whose PA is limited by accuracy. A +1 to hit and damage means he can PA for 1 more than he was going to, so +3 more damage (1 morale, 2 PA), but really about +3.3 since it's multiplied on crits (or +3.6 with Improved Crit or Keen), unlike the +3.5 from DFI. If his attack bonus is so good he can go full PA on a full attack even without IC, then DFI is better.

You can certainly put forward various numbers and scenarios and how you might build a party or develop tactics to take optimal advantage of DFI. But in general, I'd only go for DFI and Draconic Heritage after Song of the Heart (if possible) and Words of Creation (if possible). A bard who is single-mindedly focused on IC can get all of those feats, of course, but that didn't seem to be the OP's intent.

[Doomboy911]

Would it help if I told you my other party members?

[Kosjsjach]

Would it help if I told you my other party members?

More information always helps, especially with these guys.

[Glimbur]

Getting Sonic DFI requires 3 feats. 1 for DFI, 1 for Dragontouched to count as a 1st level sorcerer to fulfill the requirement on Draconic Heritage, and Draconic Heritage for something like Battle Dragon, Steel Dragon, or Pyroclastic Dragon.

Can't you go Silverbrow Human or similar to save a feat?

[9mm]

Can't you go Silverbrow Human or similar to save a feat?

silverbow locks you to cold damage; most dms will ignore draconics sorc pre-req in my experience though

[ex cathedra]

That's a common houserule, at least, but by RAW the only ways to change your natural DFI energy type is by the Half-Dragon template or the Draconic Heritage feat, iirc.

[Temotei]

DFI does fire by default, and you need another feat to make it sonic, right? So two feats to enable a 1:2.5 tradeoff, since you're also giving up the morale bonus to damage from a standard Inspire Courage. I do think that 1:2.5 is a trade often worth taking, but not necessarily every swing of every combat, particularly when you have iteratives. As with PA, estimate if it's worth it based on how often you're hitting and for how much damage. If it seems like the TWF rogue usually hits on 40% of all attacks, and does about 30 damage per hit, then that rogue would do better with +3 to hit and damage than with +3d6 damage.

Now, I don't know if you can stack a normal Inspire Courage and then the next round a DFI effect. If the DM allows that, it might be a really good option. Also unclear to me is whether a DM would allow a masterwork mandolin to boost DFI.

Actually, wouldn't that be +3 to hit and damage or +1 to hit and +3d6 damage? It's still masterwork, even when you use its magical enhancement to get it flaming, shocking, and frosty.

[Doomboy911]

Well to begin I want to still help my party out just I want to be able to venture out a little on my own without getting obliterated.Now the rest of my party can already run off on their own we're all level two except our rogue who next game will level up.We have a shifter rogue who grabbed the flying trait and the claws trait. A changeling paladin who joined to be our healer a druid who wants to take up a vampire template but he's just going to wild shape to something similar a warforged barbarian and his artificer who plans to scribe scrolls for me to make me effective. Lastly me a bard who is willing to do whatever it takes to become useful.

[ErrantX]

Dragonfire Inspiration, Snowflake Wardance, Slippers of Battledancing, Song of the White Raven, Words of Creation, and Harmonizing Crystal Echoblades come to mind.

Could someone inform where one finds Slippers of Battledancing and Harmonizing Crystal Echoblades? I've got a bard in my game and I'm sure these are things she'll want to ask her artificer for.

-X

[Keld Denar]

Harmonizing is a +1 equiv in MIC (pg 35) that essentially gives you the Lingering Song feat with any vocal performance. Crystal Echoblade is a specific weapon in MIC (pg 49) that allows you to add 1/2 your Bard level in sonic damage while performing. They can be combined for 4310 + 6000g, the cost of a +2 Crystal Echoblade. It appears that the "Crystal Echoblade" part is a flat 2000g addon to a normal +1 long sword.

Slippers of Battledancing are in the DMGII (pg 272). They don't combine well, as they require 5 ranks in Perform (Dance), while the Echoblade only works with Perform (Song). Slippers would synergize well with Snowflake Wardance though. Slippers are also INSANELY expensive, weighing in at a lofty 33,750g, almost as much as a +6 stat item and out of reach until probably level 12 or so.