Newbie DM with power gamer problem

[Snikies]

I've been playing d&d for a while now, and i just recently tried to DM. The problem is, one of my players is a veteran gamer and he is really good. He knows pretty much everything about the game and he prides himself on exploiting every possibility from all the core books. He doesn't like splat books or anything that is not core. So its nearly impossible to limit him short of saying that core rules and class option are not available in my campaign. I don't want to just strip him of his options, what i want is to learn ways to challenge him so he still has fun, yet not wipe the party. The party complains its not fun when he one shots all the boss encounters. And i have no fun when i plan really in depth encounters that he walks through as if he was a god. It was cool the first time he showed us his broken spell combos, but not its just tiresome. I can't challenge him, the party is losing interest, and i feel like hes not having fun either. Any tips on building fun, yet challenging encounters for a mixed player ability party? Oh btw, i've tried monsters with ability drain and miss chance, and that is not challenge. Even well planned tactics don't work. I can beat him if i single him out, but thats no fun. Thanks for any advice.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Present him with a prickly social issue he must solve. Political intrigue, perhaps. Things like that. Things you have to think through rather than fight through.

Or we could help you make an ungodly powerful BBEG.

I prefer the latter approach.

Anyways, be sure you know the rules. Often times, people who go about bragging about how great their characters are and about broken spell combos really have no idea what they are actually doing and are misreading or misinterpreting the actual rules to get the desired effect.

[Swordgleam]

If he's not having fun either, why not talk to him about toning it down? Building game-breaking super-optimized characters is fun, and an art in itself, but why does he have to take that character and play it? Why not build broken characters all over the place, then have a relatively normal one to play at the table?

Try presenting it as a challenge: sure, he can solo your boss with his broken combo machine. But is he good enough at tactics to still kill things with a character that has 12 in every ability score? What about one with just normal scores and sub-optimal feat choices?

[Optimystik]

Rocks fall, he dies.

Ask him to tone down the munchkining.

[Crafty Cultist]

Warn him that anything he does to break the game his enemies can too. And as DM, there is no limits to the resources you can use in your cheese

[FFTGeist]

Enact rule -1?
Ask him to tone it down outside of the game because his skills and knowledge are causing the game to not be fun for everyone else. Take the route that your an inexperienced DM and still haven't mastered crafting encounters for a group with a semi power player.

Ask him if he'd be willing to play a single class you both agree on, has he ever played a pure bard?

As Pharoh mentioned try doing more role play encounters.

-Skill checks against guards in a friendly city, maybe you've been accused criminals for a crime you never commited.
-Convincing a politician to send a group of soldiers to stop a goblin army.
-Have the party's cleric find out the leader of his church in a large city is actually an evil outsider and they need to sneak/bribe their way into the town to kill him or need to gather proof outside of town.
-Someone is trying to start fires around a farming community, your players need to stop the fires before they claim innocent lives, and ruin the areas crops before they can stop the BBEG
-Or if all else fails and he uses a melee weapon read into disarm. Otherwise trip them (him) to keep him out of combat. Look into dire wolves... /sigh

Best bet is out of game communication.


EDIT:
Remember, the DM will ALWAYS win the arms race. You can ALWAYS come up with stronger monsters and a better combination. It is up to the players to play within the rules and the DM to play to the party. If he can't play down for the game then hulking hurler, or pun pun him... Also have a phase spider grapple him and phase back to the ethereal plane. bye bye

[Doc Roc]

I'm guessing this is 3.5. If you want, I can roll out some cool or challenging stuff. You could also use some of the encounters from The Monkening, which seem to work well enough.

[ex cathedra]

Well, what sort of things is he using? Is it just good spell tactics, or he is abusing blatantly terrible things? That could provide some insight to the situation.

[Reluctance]

Like Pharaoh said, I'm curious what his killer combos are. Won't change the end result, but my advice for a dyed-in-the-wool optimizer (have a chat, ask him to tone down his characters or help the other players beef up theirs) is different from my advice for a cheater (dragons rape his character to death, followed by the player being uninvited).

Also, how often does he spotlight-grab? I can play an optimized god courteously and supportively, or I can play a commoner who always has to draw attention to his inept antics. Scene stealing is an issue of player management, of keeping control of your own table, and is only tangentially related to the numbers. It can be hard to admit that you've lost control of the game, but if that's the issue, it's much better to tackle it head-on than to play optimized build whack-a-mole.

[Incorrect]

Perhaps ask him to focus on buffing the party. Even if he is powergaming, the others will be the ones doing the action.
If he is the best buffer in your world, and the party gets the benefits, maybe everybody can get along?

[Lioness]

As a new DM myself, I've asked players to keep it as simple as possible.
I've also asked them to check their characters through with me so I can discuss alternatives if they are too overpowered...

If something like this crops up, I'd probably take the player aside and tell him/her that I think their character is a little too overpowered, and see whether we can come to an agreement on a middle ground.

[Oslecamo]

Here's my guide to building interesting ecounters for DMs. It's still not finished, but it should help you get the basics of countering power gamers:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133604

EDIT:Alternatively, just talk to the player and ask him to tone it down. Probably retire his super current character and make a new more toned down one.

Or, you're the DM. You can homebrew at will. Give the monsters abilities on the fly wich you think will make the fight interesting but not one sided.

[AslanCross]

Talk to him and point-blank tell him that his powergaming is interfering in everyone's enjoyment (assuming it actually is).

D&D is a game about team cooperation and enjoyment. If he's doing this munchkinry at the expense of everyone else, then it's no longer kosher.

Core has a lot of broken stuff itself (Candle of Invocation, for example), so the core only rule does practically nothing in nerfing the options that DO need nerfing.

[Swordguy]

Another vote for "talk to him out-of-game" regarding this. As a DM, you are well within your rights to spell out under what circumstances and player behaviors you are willing to run the game (as a note for next time, it is extremely helpful to spell these out before your game actually starts). If the player(s) is unwilling to abide by those, then he's not welcome at the table as long as you're GMing - it's that simple.

Perhaps a smoother tack in this instance, however, might be to point out that you ARE a "newbie" DM, and you aren't comfortable with him pulling power combos yet. Ask him point-blank to tone it down (don't insinuate; make him say yes or no), and, assuming he's not going to metagame, offer as a "compensation" prize the position of "assistant GM". That is, run some of your encounters by him between sessions so he can crunch numbers and make sure they're reasonably appropriate for the party, and let him make suggestions as to making the game tougher/more exciting for the rest of the party. That way, you're putting his rule-crunching abilities to use benefiting the whole table, while putting a stop to the initial power-gaming.

Be up-front and assertive, though. This is a very heavy "player's rights" forum; and, given a lengthy enough thread, you're going to have people tell you that you have no right to ask or make him stop in the manner HE wants to play. Remember, without you, there is no game at all, and you have JUST as much right to have fun as anyone else at the table. Since you're the one who's putting the whole thing together, it's your decision what playstyles are allowed at your table, especially when a playstyle is interfering with your ability to have fun. Be polite about it, but if he's really throwing you for a loop and tells you to screw off when you've honestly and politely asked him to ease up, don't feel that his "rights" trump yours. Be ready to remove him from the table as a last resort.

[Killer Angel]

Pretty much what all the other posters said.
Talk with him, but remember that there are options that let him optimize his character without ruining the fun for the other players.
Examples: An optimized buffer is perfect; an optimized low tier class (monk, etc) should be on par with suboptimal high level tier played by others.

[Gnaeus]

I agree with everything said above.

Other possibilities: If the other players are willing, he could help them optimize their characters. With an optimized party, you (the DM) just crank up the monsters by one or 2 CRs.

If he is somewhat responsible, you could ask him if he wants to make some of your bad guys. Sometimes this works.

[BobVosh]

Vampire Unarmed Swordsages solve all problems in large enough numbers.

Anyway unless we know exactly how he breaks the game the only and best advice we can give is talk to the man. Ask him to tone it down.

[Samurai Jill]

I'm afraid most of the advice in this thread is terrible.

Singling out a particular player for punishing encounters- whether those are extra-tough BBEGs, convoluted social encounters (for which D&D offers virtually no mechanical support,) or simply lobbing the same broken spell combinations back in the player's face (while 'going easy' on the relative newbs)- are all basically forms of inverse favouritism. There is no reason why the player should be explicitly punished just for being competent.

I suspect that the problem here isn't that the player is doing anything wrong, but that the rules are broken, (and this is particularly likely if you haven't adopted 4E yet.) Broken spell combinations are generally the result of broken rules, so go and adopt a rule-set that isn't hopelessly broken. (If nothing else, he'll have to re-learn things from scratch along with the other players, and that ought to level the playing field a bit.) You'll save yourself grief in the long run.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I'm afraid most of the advice in this thread is terrible.

Amusing, though.

Singling out a particular player for punishing encounters- whether those are extra-tough BBEGs, convoluted social encounters (for which D&D offers virtually no mechanical support,)

No one suggested convoluted social encounters.

[Samurai Jill]

No one suggested convoluted social encounters.

Really?

Present him with a prickly social issue he must solve. Political intrigue, perhaps. Things like that. Things you have to think through rather than fight through.

...Perhaps I misinterpreted.

[Killer Angel]

I'm afraid most of the advice in this thread is terrible.
snip
Broken spell combinations are generally the result of broken rules, so go and adopt a rule-set that isn't hopelessly broken.

So, your non terrible solution is "don't play D&D"? yeah, brilliant.

[Samurai Jill]

So, your non terrible solution is "don't play D&D"? yeah, brilliant.

Certainly not 3E/3.5E. I'd be surprised if the OP were already playing 4E and ran into so many broken spell combinations. I have no bone to pick with 4E.

[Lioness]

Certainly not 3E/3.5E. I'd be surprised if the OP were already playing 4E and ran into so many broken spell combinations. I have no bone to pick with 4E.

That's a personal opinion and not really helpful to the OP. Change the system of D&D they're playing because one player is overpowered? That's not logical. It's much easier to just ask the player to tone it down a bit. Hopefully no harm done, no-one drastically upset, etc.

[pasko77]

Certainly not 3E/3.5E. I'd be surprised if the OP were already playing 4E and ran into so many broken spell combinations. I have no bone to pick with 4E.

This would my same suggestion, but probably this is not feasible. Probably the group owns these books and these alone.

I can't find a better solution than: "ask the expert to gimp themselves". When I was in the same situation (only competent player), I played an arcane trickster and took the skillmonkey/buff role... 'nuff said :)

[Samurai Jill]

That's a personal opinion and not really helpful to the OP. Change the system of D&D they're playing because one player is overpowered? That's not logical. It's much easier to just ask the player to tone it down a bit. Hopefully no harm done, no-one drastically upset, etc.

If it works, great. However- whileI presume the OP knows the player better than I do- I would again suspect that a player this committed to powergaming in the first place isn't going to be receptive to voluntarily gimping themselves. I could be wrong.

[Lioness]

If it works, great. However- whileI presume the OP knows the player better than I do- I would again suspect that a player this committed to powergaming in the first place isn't going to be receptive to voluntarily gimping themselves. I could be wrong.

it does depend on the player in question. We've got a couple in our group who have a lot of fun optimizing their characters, and get slightly disappointed when the DM tries to negotiate a more balanced character, but only disappointed because they don't get to use X cool power they had. They understand that it would spoil the game a little if they were too overpowered.

[Joey/Flake]

i'm intrested in the level of the party and combination he is using.

/Most/ Powerbuilds have a large weakness, as they focus in a single area. Tho, this isn't aways the case.

4ED = WoW, so there ways to break it, just takes times and the supplement book to come out, before we really see the issues arising (IMO)

I powergame, I play a Cleric/Bard, little beauty. I feel if have to sit in that role, or the part fall, as no one else has the inclination or exp to cover the roles. Most play Rogue or Necromancers.. My DM doesn't mind me powerbuilding as I build for everyone, and it gives a level field.

If you give us a copy of what he is playing, I'm sure we can show you a flaw to help bring him down a peg or two.. or even, give him a cursed item, limiting him in someway. Then Via imersion RP, he can remove it when youthink the group is of a similar power.

[Sir Homeslice]

4ED = WoW, so there ways to break it, just takes times and the supplement book to come out, before we really see the issues arising (IMO)

While I don't debate that 4e can be broken...

Really? Really?

[Lioness]

I think that trying to bring him down a few notches might anger him further. If you talked to him first, saw his viewpoint, and then if he didn't want to back down, ruthlessly overpower him with big bad awesome things.

Just to stop any bad feelings.

[DabblerWizard]

Both Lioness and Samurai Jill make important points.

- Expert players don't enjoy being needlessly crippled, in any game.
- Low-key accommodations for the sake of group harmony are reasonable expectations.

If D&D were a single player game, we wouldn't have an issue with munchkinry. There would be no other feet to stomp on.

As it stands, an expert players need to realize that if the rest of their group is unfamiliar, or uncomfortable with their power-gaming, they have these options: (1) accommodate to the rest of the group and curb their optimizing (not fun, but maybe necessary); (2) teach the group about optimization and tricks of the trade (a nice compromise); (3) find a more experienced group

Players and DMs need to adapt to each others' needs, within reason.