3.5 Is shield bash useless?

[Hannes]

Also, do you need to be proficient with shields to use it or proficient with martial weapons?

[Siosilvar]

The answer to all three of your questions is yes.

It can be made less useless, however, with a bashing shield and shield spikes, upping size by 23 categories total.

[ericgrau]

I forget the reference but it seems like the intent was to provide you with a good backup option while disarmed. It's also an interesting TWF option. So, yes and no.

Unfortunately many campaigns are lower on humanoids than such rules expected, so disarm becomes less common and useful. Or other groups forget such rules exist. OTOH they often forget shield bash exists too.

[Yuki Akuma]

If you're not proficient with shields, you'll take their armour check penalty as a penalty to attack rolls anyway... so, being proficient with both certainly helps!

Shield bash is not useless. Especially if it's a spiked shield, as the shield and spikes can be enhanced separately. Don't go higher than a +1 bonus on the shield, and just pile on special abilities, because you don't get the shield's bonus to AC when you use it to attack.

[Hannes]

If you're not proficient with shields, you'll take their armour check penalty as a penalty to attack rolls anyway... so, being proficient with both certainly helps!

Shield bash is not useless. Especially if it's a spiked shield, as the shield and spikes can be enhanced separately. Don't go higher than a +1 bonus on the shield, and just pile on special abilities, because you don't get the shield's bonus to AC when you use it to attack.

Unless you have Improved Shield Bash.

And, so, if I'm not proficient with all Martial Weapons I'll get the penalty for being nonproficient, even when I'm proficient with shields?

[Sinfire Titan]

One idea is to use nothing but shields as your main weapon (dual-wielding them, even though the AC bonus won't stack). JaronK did an excellent Crusader build that focused on that very idea a while ago on Gleemax (sadly, the post and thread are now lost forever). Here's the basics of the build:

Off the top of my head, it was Human Wolf Totem (CC or UA) Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/Crusader 16, taking Whirling Frenzy and Lion Totem (UA, CC) with Barbarian if the DM allowed. Improved Shield Bash, Shield Charge (PH2), and Shield Slam (PH2) were the most important parts, and I think Curling Wave Strike (Storm) was also used to good effect. For manuevers, Shield Block and Shield Counter were in there, along with White Raven Tactics and a bunch of charging manuevers. Stances were Iron Gaurd's Glare, Martial Spirit, and your choice of other stuff (Thicket of Blades would be wise for when you're protecting people who have too low of an AC for IGG to matter).

The weapon was a +1 Valorous Spiked Heavy Shield, augmented by a Tooth of Lejere (ToM). Permanent Enlarge Person got your reach covered. You may also want a +1 Skillfull Spinning Sword, which is used primarily to extend the reach of Iron Gaurd's Glare in addition to providing extended trip range when you can't charge.

That said, I'm working on very little sleep right now (just got back from an 18 hour drive after working a burn perimeter... don't ask), so I might be missing something. But that should be enough to get the point across.

Books are bolded. And yes, you can take both Lion Totem and Wolf Totem (even the CC versions). They are two different ACFs, one requiring Uncanny Dodge and the other requiring Fast Movement. They are not the same ACF that requires both Uncanny Dodge and Fast Movement.

[Yuki Akuma]

Unless you have Improved Shield Bash.

And, so, if I'm not proficient with all Martial Weapons I'll get the penalty for being nonproficient, even when I'm proficient with shields?

Shield proficiency refers to using a shield as a shield, not a weapon. When used as a weapon, a shield is a martial weapon.

[Hannes]

I might go into a rant explaining why that is historically wrong, as training to be proficient with shields included being able to use it as a weapon, but meh, the rules are the rules. It was a strange fancy anyway

[Yuki Akuma]

Historical innacuracy? In my D&D?! Say it ain't so!

(Also, no cultures in D&D are historical cultures from Earth.)

[Hannes]

But come on, I mean, it's logical. If you can use it as a weapon, you will be taught to use it as a weapon as part of your basic training! It's not like "hurrr it's a shield you use it to block you can also bash skulls in with it but we're not gonna show you how because you're stupid and you smell".


/derail

[Yuki Akuma]

You are aware that Fighters, the guys who have traditional trained warrior backgrounds, are in fact proficient in both shields and martial weapons, right.

[Hannes]

But they're not the only ones trained in shields...

[Fenlun]

I have a Fighter with the Bashing shield quality, as well as the appropriate feats. It not much fancier than a weapon with a special quality, but it makes better use of a the shield you might be carrying, and comes in handy if you lose your main weapon for any reason.

[LibraryOgre]

Shields are undervalued as weapons in D&D. Consider that hitting someone with a light shield does about as much damage as hitting them with a gauntleted fist... and only as much as a dagger with a heavy shield.

A light shield weighs between 5 and 6 pounds, depending on whether its wood or metal.* A heavy shield weighs 10 or 15 pounds.* A gauntlet weighs 1#. A Club weighs 3#... and averages 1 more point of damage than a weapon that may weigh five times as much. By way of comparison, imagine getting hit with a one-handed swing of a baseball bat... then having a half-door slammed edge-first into you by someone who means to do you harm... or getting body checked with the same door.

Incidentally, a great feat for rangers is Improved Shield Bash. Make use of the two-weapon fighting AND get a shield bonus to your less-than-stellar AC.

*I believe the weights are a little screwy on this, but these are the numbers they go off of.

[Crow]

Shield bashing is a fun TWF option to get some extra AC. Especially if you add in +damage options or have something like sneak attack. The generic warrior class in Unearthed Arcana can be a beast with this.

[sonofzeal]

Sword+Board TWF Ranger is a fairly viable build. There's a bunch of CW and PHB2 feats which help a lot. The ability to daze while doing damage is pretty solid. I have a Swift Hunter who's focused on shieldbashing, and it seems to work pretty well.

[Ladorak]

I really like bashing shields. They do more damage then any one handed weapon, grant an AC bonus, plus you can enchant spikes and shield separately. You could, hypothetically (Costs too much cash for my tastes) have a +4 large spiked bashing shield with +4 defending spikes for around 100k. Adds 10 to your armour class and still does 2d6 damage. Plus Agile Shield fighter is actually better then TWF. Plus there are a few very nice shield feats, such as Shield Charge with Imp. Trip