[3.5] Explain why Magic Users are better than Psionics

[Overshee]

Dear GitPers, please explain to my DM why even an optimized Psychic Warrior isn't nearly as effective as a caster, especially at higher levels.

Also, ways to equalize/make challenges for both types would be awesome.

Thanks,
Overshee

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Dear GitPers, please explain to my DM why even an optimized Psychic Warrior isn't nearly as effective as a caster, especially at higher levels.

Also, ways to equalize/make challenges for both types would be awesome.

Thanks,
Overshee

Moar spells equal moar power. Also, remember Manifester level=cap on power points spent.

[Kylarra]

Well, a short summary of his common points would be helpful unless you want responses in a vacuum.

[Overshee]

Well, a short summary of his common points would be helpful unless you want responses in a vacuum.

I haven't approached him with it yet. These are points for a conversation that is sure to occur.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Well, a short summary of his common points would be helpful unless you want responses in a vacuum.

I have found that the vacuum to do wonders in sucking up all the crap that gets thrown around in Psionic's face.


Seriously, though, Core-only, magic has things like Major Creation, Time Stop, Contingency, and Rocket Tag to give Reality a new backside.

[taltamir]

1. better magic powers. their spells are more powerful.
2. wizard and cleric have a theretically infinite list of spells known which they can alter without leveling up. A cleric just chooses new spell in the morning, a wizard just buys a scroll, scribes, and then prepares it.
Since their spells can do literally anything, and since there are so many splatbooks (and the core stuff is grossly overpowered to begin with)...

for every adverse situation a cleric or a wizard can find a spell in some book that will work wonders.
A level 7 wizard with a plan can take out a CR20 dragon unless he rolls a nat 1, twice in a row (unless the dragon has rings of counterspell with the right spell), a level 9 wizard can do likewize to a balor unless he rolls a nat 1.

it just takes preparing and choosing the right spell combo. Every type of limitation, from SR to saves, can be negated by choosing and preparing the right spells.

now, granted. If you are just going blindly into an unknown adventure with sub optimal spell selection you can be in a lot of trouble.. although there are plenty of divination spells that let you know what to expect ahead of time.

even the worst built wizard or cleric can be picked up by an optimizer who simply spends a day or two in game to change out their spell selection to make them uber. While with sorcerers and favored souls you cannot do it. Same with the psions. you have powers known and thats that.

A highly sub par strategy and spell selection CAN cripple a caster though. and it is easy to make mistakes without reading a bunch of guides on the subject.

and also, a lot of the "uberwin" strategies tend to be banned by many DMs... so that is another issue...
But overall the vast variety of awesome spells that can do practically anything and solve any problem overwhelms any drawbacks.

[Kylarra]

Well, it really depends on the optimization level of the group you're playing in. A well optimized PsyWar could very well be "more powerful" than your healbots and blaster wizards.

In a vacuum though,

Spells > Psionics in terms of overall power.
Fullcasters > Halfcasters
therefore
Magic Fullcaster > Psionic halfcaster.

Nearly anything your psywar can do, a full caster can do as well, up to and including summoning a monster to do his job while still maintaining their normal spells.


Balancing encounters, without fiat, generally involves making heavy use of terrain and tactics to minimize the effect of the usual battlefield control spells.

[sonofzeal]

- Spells are, generally, a little more powerful if a little less flexible than psi powers.

- There are a whole lot more really frigging broken spells than there are powers.

- Damage-based spells scale freely with level; damage-based psi powers never do.

- Wizards can add to their spellbooks, Psions can't.

- Spellcasters get way more variants and special options

- There are whole orders of magnitude more spells printed than their are powers

- There are whole orders of magnitude more feats printed that help spellcasters.

- There are whole orders of magnitude more PrCs printed that help spellcasters, and a good number of them are far better than what's available to most psionicists.

- Psionicists can't craft magic items nearly as well.

- Metapsionics suck compared to Metamagics

- A comprehensive survey of many of the most knowledgeable players reveals Psions well below Clerics, Druids, and Wizards.

[sonofzeal]

Dear GitPers, please explain to my DM why even an optimized Psychic Warrior isn't nearly as effective as a caster, especially at higher levels.

Also, ways to equalize/make challenges for both types would be awesome.

Thanks,
Overshee

For the Psychic Warrior specifically, it's the number of power points they get that's crippling. I'm playing one now, and I have to severely ration myself. If I don't use powers I'm a Fighter with worse HD, worse BAB, and less Feats. If I do use powers, I have to really economize or I lose out.

My big powers are "Psi Lion's Charge" (3pp, gives Pounce), "Wall Walker" (3pp, Spiderclimb), "Dimensional Slide" (5pp, ultra-short range teleport), and "Expansion" (1pp, Enlarge Person). There's a few others, but those are the big ones I've actually used.

That's not a game-winning set. That's a fairly nice list of things to have, granted, but aren't going to dominate the game at a level where Wizards are casting Polymorph, Overland Flight, Magic Jar, Wall of Force, Feeblemind, and Teleport.

[Kosjsjach]

...
A level 7 wizard with a plan can take out a CR20 dragon unless he rolls a nat 1, twice in a row (unless the dragon has rings of counterspell with the right spell), a level 9 wizard can do likewize to a balor unless he rolls a nat 1.

I don't mean to derail the thread, but... how, exactly?

[Pluto]

The Psychic Warrior is a bit tricky to compare to any core classes because Core really didn't try to fill its niche. The Cleric and Druid came close, but their powers are more in their magic than in their direct smashiness (though they certainly have both).

It's easier to illustrate the way a Wizard trumps a Psion:

Spoiler

Show

First look at the Wizard spell list, then look at the Psion Power list. You'll notice that the Wizard list is longer and more versatile (you can summon demons, you can target other people with buffs, you have much more in the way of terrain manipulation, you have a number of mass-disable spells that target Fortitude saves, etc).

Then look at the Psion's Powers known. They get around 70. Then look at the Wizard's Spellbook mechanic. The Wizard can access every spell ever printed on its class list.

Then look at the actual power of Powers versus Spells. You'll notice that Fly and Dominate are translated as discipline-specific powers one level higher than their spell counterparts. You'll notice that a 10d6 Psion Power always uses equivalent resources to a fifth level spell. The Wizard does it with a second or third level slot.

The Psychic Warrior is hard to compare to the core casters. It's much more focused on filling the Fighter's place in the party than the Cleric or Druid and can probably outdo them in several areas.

(I believe a PW can generate more damage than a Cleric or Druid via Metamorphosis, Expansion, Claws of the Beast and assured full attacks via Hustle and Lion's Charge, with feats left over to put together a few options that Clerics have a hard time matching like lockdowns or charge specialization)

But the Psychic Warrior has much less versatility in its spell effects than the Cleric or Druid and has much less endurance if it tries to match them in high-level effects.

[Overshee]

I don't mean to derail the thread, but... how, exactly?

Shivering touch, I believe. 3d6 dex damage. Maximized at level 6 it does 18 dex damage which puts the dex 10 dragon in a coma

[PhoenixRivers]

Involves Shivering Touch, and no sane great wyrm will be without a defense versus it, and massive sensory advantages. It's not as likely as it's made to sound.

As for Psy vs Full Caster.

The difference is primarily in support.

There are dozens of books out there that support full casters. There are few that support psionics. A discussion involving psionics is necessarily not core, which opens a lot of splat options.

On top of that, the tier one classes are what they are because they have crazy levels of versatility. Wizards, Druids, Clerics? They can rewrite their spell list every day. That's what puts them up there. They can work more options in.

[Kosjsjach]

Shivering touch, I believe. 3d6 dex damage. Maximized at level 6 it does 18 dex damage which puts the dex 10 dragon in a coma

Right, I figured. Sorry, I should've been clearer. How does a 9th-level wizard take down a Balor with a 95% chance of success? (With a 5th-level spell, I assume )

[olentu]

Right, I figured. Sorry, I should've been clearer. How does a 9th-level wizard take down a Balor with a 95% chance of success? (With a 5th-level spell, I assume )

Perhaps empower and maxamize.

[ex cathedra]

Generally, it doesn't. taltimir's examples are absurdly situational, and the listed chances are likely fabricated. It is possible for a mildly optimized and rather lucky wizard to defeat a Balor, but it's nothing to base a balance argument on.

Psionics are very self-contained, comparatively. Their powers appear in a bit less than a dozen supplements, which is helpful. They're less powerful, as a whole, and psionics classes (with the notable exception of erudite) have a very limited amount of spells known, when compared to Wizards, Clerics, Druids, and the like.

[Optimystik]

A 9th-level Wizard would fold immediately to a Balor (after one Blasphemy.)

[Kantolin]

One thing I did note about playing an expansion-focused psychic warrior is that, until you hit that marvelous level where you can use expansion to go up two size categories or expand as a swift action... a cleric with the strength domain has most if not literally all of your tricks, and then divine power.

This didn't come up in the particular game I'm in (which is still running, as a note), but uh... well. Many of the powers listed above are ones I have, and they are certainly not gamebreaking. A cleric can grow in size, get a rather high strength, and beat things... and more frequently due to having more spells per day than I have power points to augment.

Don't get me wrong - a psychic warrior is useful, but I've played a beat'm cleric of St Cuthbert lately, and staring at, 'Man, I could have righteous might right now' certainly puts expansion in perspective. :P

I can't comment about not size and strength-based psychic warriors, though. Psionics is generally pretty fair overall.

[taltamir]

Right, I figured. Sorry, I should've been clearer. How does a 9th-level wizard take down a Balor with a 95% chance of success? (With a 5th-level spell, I assume )

shivering touch is an example of a broken wizard/sorc spell. Celerity is an even more broken spell (you can cast it on someone elses turn, it makes it your turn; but afterwards you are stunned for a turn)

assay resistance + greater spell penetration + level 9 = makes the SR check vs the balor on a nat 1 (SR checks do not autofail on nat1)
maximized shivering touch + celerity + maximized shivering touch.

you will need to first scry to make sure the balor isn't wearing a ring of counterspell with shivering touch, because it will not work on it if it does.

and the massive sensory range... phantom steed (be out of his range, close in in a single round), flight + haste, etc you can close in on one round from outside the range of vision.
there are a few other tricks you combo into this and use to ensure your success.

As for the dragon having defenses.. if the dragon has 2 rings of counterspell with a shivering touch spell...
Your familiar with UMD and a wand of shivering touch readies an action to cast shivering touch on the dragon when in range. you close in (carrying your familiar), it casts shivering touch on the dragon, waste its first defense. You cast shivering touch using up its second defense, then celerity, then a third shivering touch.
unless the dragon is sufficiently old to have scintilating scales on via its sorcerer levels that is.

Oh, and both you and your familiar use true strike before attacking...

If you want to play it safe, if the dragon is not down after the second shivering touch, and you don't want to risk its wrath, celerity + teleport.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Anything you can do, the dragon can do better. Dragon spams Contact Other Plane to discover you might be a threat in future, and uses scry-and-die to get you.

Balor has UMD. After you get the first one, a friend of his will stock up on scrolls and come for revenge.

[Kobold-Bard]

Anything you can do, the dragon can do better. Dragon spams Contact Other Plane to discover you might be a threat in future, and uses scry-and-die to get you.

Balor has UMD. After you get the first one, a friend of his will stock up on scrolls and come for revenge.

You fool. You thing a Great Wyrm or a Balor will battle any smarter than a Dire Lemur?

That would be cheating by the DM, so id no allowed in Munchkin world

[Foryn Gilnith]

If you're not using sarrukh, Wish loops, or magic traps, you're not in Munchkin world.

[Kobold-Bard]

If you're not using sarrukh, Wish loops, or magic traps, you're not in Munchkin world.

I'm playing in a Tippyverse (aka Munchkin world that's not only allowed, but encouraged) PbP game now as a Psi-Gish. I'm very much not looking forward to level 10, by which point everyone bar the Wizard will be completely obsolete, me moreso than most.

[Samb]

Hmmm a psion is already regarded as better than a psywar in terms of sheer power, varity, and endurance. To compare psywar to a wizard, it should be even more obvious why a psywar can't stack up.

That being said, you can make a very good case that psywar are the best melee class in the game, but even the best melee will fall short to a full-manifester/caster for all the reasons already listed.

Do not despair, for psywar has many tricks up its sleeve to not only be effective but exetremely fun as well at all levels. Metamorphosis with a psicyrstal is great. If you have schism? Even better.

Misconception about psywars: they are not gish. Well not really. They are more melee than gish. A wilder or ardent fills the gish role for having huge PP pool and being full manifesting. If psywar is your idea of gish, you may be dissappointed.

Two glaring flaws that do stand out for psywar are: poor PP pool, and lack of 7-9 th powers, a a bit of MAD.

1)You will be using at least 4 feats on psionic talent to increase your PP pool.
2)MAD can be solved if you rolled well, have a high point buy, or no one competing for STR, and/or WIS boosting items.
3) nothing you can do about 7-9th powers other than taking the mantled variant and using power stones of said powers, or getting your hands on a psicrown. Another options is to take a real gish class like wilder or ardent.

Psywar is one of the best melee (if not the best) in the game, including ToB, you should have no trouble making a decent contribution to your party on a consistant basis.

[Overshee]

I'm a little ashamed of myself for this, but I have a thread for optimizing my psychic warrior and I'd really appreciate some more help. If you've already posted in it thank you, but I'm realizing how hard it is to make a PsyWar that can even be close to competing with a caster in the teens. Any more help would be awesome.

[FatR]

In the game where Shivering Touch can be possibly allowed, assuming that GM has the slightest idea about the realities of DnD, and is not browbeaten by players into running a total Monty Haul, all dragons have Wings of Cover, and all Great Wyrms can respond to Celerity with Celerity and have Nondetection or/and Anticipate Teleportation always on, so these shenanigans will never work.

The big problem, of course, is that, in effect, they (and balors abusing UMD as well) basically crush wizards by stealing wizards' own tricks. But that was basically true for high-powered monsters in all editions of DnD.

[Tyndmyr]

Dear GitPers, please explain to my DM why even an optimized Psychic Warrior isn't nearly as effective as a caster, especially at higher levels.

Dear DM, because THEY ARE FREAKING CASTERS. Thank you.



If your DM has played 3.5 for any significant amount of time, that should be sufficient.

[Signmaker]

In the game where Shivering Touch can be possibly allowed, assuming that GM has the slightest idea about the realities of DnD, and is not browbeaten by players into running a total Monty Haul, all dragons have Wings of Cover, and all Great Wyrms can respond to Celerity with Celerity and have Nondetection or/and Anticipate Teleportation always on, so these shenanigans will never work.

The big problem, of course, is that, in effect, they (and balors abusing UMD as well) basically crush wizards by stealing wizards' own tricks. But that was basically true for high-powered monsters in all editions of DnD.

Yes. Spell-casting dragons have the same total spell access you do (being done up by the DM), and are thus quite capable of, well, not caring. Not to mention they have had years to build up a capable stock of contingencies. Or at least, my current DM's dragons do. They're quite a pain to kill.

There's also the traditional argument of "Just because the dragons sleep on their loot doesn't mean they don't know how to use it".

Dragons are generally really hard to kill when you put a player's mindset in to their action, rather than "GRAAAWWRRR BREATH CLAW CLAW BITE". So while you may feel free to Shivering Touch the younger, less wealthy and intelligent dragons, don't expect it to work against the Great Wyrms and such.

[Samb]

I'm a little ashamed of myself for this, but I have a thread for optimizing my psychic warrior and I'd really appreciate some more help. If you've already posted in it thank you, but I'm realizing how hard it is to make a PsyWar that can even be close to competing with a caster in the teens. Any more help would be awesome.

are you in a game with a bunch of optimizers? Because few people really take the time to really research all the spells and everything it entails. I have 2 wizards in my current group and all they know is "moar d6= better spell". Don't assume that all wizards are created equally or that all players are optimizers.

I am currently playing a rogue5/psywar2/elocater7 which is hardly an optimized build, yet I out perform everyone in the group, including the cleric and 2 wizards. Don't always assume that just because JasonK says "wizards rule" that's what it is 100% of the time. Does your DM allow everything? Is your group filled with OP players? Context is important also.

The help I gave you in your last thread and what you found should be enough to get you by even in a heavily optimized group, much less a normal one. I don't play king of smack but one thing I did notice about it is that it takes a while for you to get rapid strike thanks to the 3/4 BAB psywar gets. May want to consider slayer or sanctified mind to get it faster (only full BAB psionic PrC in the game).

[Tyndmyr]

Yes. Spell-casting dragons have the same total spell access you do (being done up by the DM), and are thus quite capable of, well, not caring. Not to mention they have had years to build up a capable stock of contingencies. Or at least, my current DM's dragons do. They're quite a pain to kill.

There's also the traditional argument of "Just because the dragons sleep on their loot doesn't mean they don't know how to use it".

Dragons are generally really hard to kill when you put a player's mindset in to their action, rather than "GRAAAWWRRR BREATH CLAW CLAW BITE". So while you may feel free to Shivering Touch the younger, less wealthy and intelligent dragons, don't expect it to work against the Great Wyrms and such.

Great wyrms, yeah...they're nasty. Now, the lesser dragons have the issue of having low spellcasting for their ECL. They're tough in other ways, yes, but the limitation on spells due to A. being a sorc and B. being short on levels means they're going to lose in a spell duel against any prepared wizard.