Banning Evocation

[mr.fizzypop]

So in my current DnD group, we have a player who decided to become a conjurer. Yet what surprised the others in the group is that he banned evocation. The other players in the group find it outrageous that he would not use spells like fireball or lightning bolt. But he says that any evocation spell can be matched by a spell from another school.

Is he correct? Is evocation as terrible of a school as he says?

[Mushroom Ninja]

Is he correct? Is evocation as terrible of a school as he says?

Evocation is the ultimate "anything I can do, you can do better" school. Its best spells (wind wall, wall of force, contingency, etc.) can be duplicated by illusion, and conjuration can outblast it.

[Signmaker]

Evocation gets redundant if you're the blasty kind of evoker. Evocation's not bad, per se, but it's got a lot of redundant spell choices, plenty of which are existent in some other fashion in other spell types. The alternatives are not always as powerful (Read: Shadow Evocation), but they exist. So it's not that hard to ban evocation, because there isn't as much to be missed as compared to other spell schools.

[kamikasei]

Well, it's not terrible. But it's not great. Direct damage isn't the best strategy for wizards, not by a long shot, and there are plenty of spells in other schools that let you deal it anyway. Conjuration especially is just overall a stronger school.

[Signmaker]

Well, it's not terrible. But it's not great. Direct damage isn't the best strategy for wizards, not by a long shot, and there are plenty of spells in other schools that let you deal it anyway. Conjuration especially is just overall a stronger school.

I blame the sheer versatility of the conjuration school. I wonder if you can't split the conjuration school in to two school types, and still maintain balance with the other spellcasting schools.

[Tyndmyr]

So in my current DnD group, we have a player who decided to become a conjurer. Yet what surprised the others in the group is that he banned evocation. The other players in the group find it outrageous that he would not use spells like fireball or lightning bolt. But he says that any evocation spell can be matched by a spell from another school.

Is he correct? Is evocation as terrible of a school as he says?

It isn't my first choice of school to ban(enchantment is), but it's in the traditional top three choices to ban. It's not that it's terrible(it makes a fun specialist school too), it's just that you can afford to lose it.

There are a *lot* of damage spells out there, after all.

Now, if he also opted to ban conjuration, he has problems. Banning both evoc and conj results in some gaping holes for a wizard.

[Mushroom Ninja]

Now, if he also opted to ban conjuration, he has problems. Banning both evoc and conj results in some gaping holes for a wizard.

Banning conjuration alone is enough to cause gaping holes for a wizard. Lack of teleportation hurts.

[Signmaker]

Banning conjuration alone is enough to cause gaping holes for a wizard. Lack of teleportation hurts.

Unless you're Gandalf. In which case you ride on your rocket hor...crap.

[aje8]

Specalist Conjurer banning Evocation (and Enchantment usually) is pretty much a standard optimized tactic.

Evocation is either the best or the 2nd best choice for schools to ban. IMO it's worse in terms of power level than Enchantment, but it's debateable.

[Tyndmyr]

Banning conjuration alone is enough to cause gaping holes for a wizard. Lack of teleportation hurts.

It does, yeah. Plotwise, a lot of DMs actually like it, but the lack of an escape button is a big deal.

The evocation replacements also come mostly from conj, so if you ban both, you have a sudden lack of nukes and such as well. Necromancy has a few, but they're rather specific, and AOEs in particular are pretty limited. Shadow evocation is also conjuration if Im not mistaken, correct?

[Yuki Akuma]

Conjuration has better direct-damage spells than Evocation, and direct-damage is usually a waste of time regardless.

Banning Evocation is what every Conjurer should do by default. You can get Contingency with Illusion (Shadow) spells.

Really, the only reason to not ban Evocation is if you plan on taking Arcane Disciple (Luck) to bust out the Miracles - and Illusion does that better anyway.

[Tyndmyr]

Ah, right, illusion. Wow, so even if conj is banned, evoc doesn't hurt as much as I'd thought.

I'd still ban enchantment first, though. Everything that matters ends up immune.

[Yuki Akuma]

Ah, right, illusion. Wow, so even if conj is banned, evoc doesn't hurt as much as I'd thought.

I'd still ban enchantment first, though. Everything that matters ends up immune.

Oh, no, if you ban Conjuration you're restricted to Creation and Summoning - no Calling or Teleportation for you!

[Mushroom Ninja]

Conjuration has better direct-damage spells than Evocation

In a core-only game, this isn't obviously so, but once thou doth addeth thine orbz, conjuration doth pwn evocation most heartily.

[Tyndmyr]

Oh, no, if you ban Conjuration you're restricted to Creation and Summoning - no Calling or Teleportation for you!

Summon monster line is all conjuration too, right?

Teleportation would suck a bit. I guess you could use wish/limited wish to replicate it, though. Limited wish should normally suffice.

I'd probably miss the creation spells more than most of the school, though.

[Draz74]

Of course, all this standard "ban evocation!" advice can go out the window depending what books are allowed, what houserules the DM enforces, etc.

For example, just being a Generalist wizard becomes a much better option if the elven substitution levels from Races of the Wild is available. And when I DM, I generally nerf the Shadow Evocation spells so they can't do useful utility effects like Contingency.

[Yuki Akuma]

Summon monster line is all conjuration too, right?

Teleportation would suck a bit. I guess you could use wish/limited wish to replicate it, though. Limited wish should normally suffice.

I'd probably miss the creation spells more than most of the school, though.

You can do Summoning and Creation with Illusion, so that's no reason to keep Conjuration.

[aje8]

Of course, all this standard "ban evocation!" advice can go out the window depending what books are allowed, what houserules the DM enforces, etc.

For example, just being a Generalist wizard becomes a much better option if the elven substitution levels from Races of the Wild is available. And when I DM, I generally nerf the Shadow Evocation spells so they can't do useful utility effects like Contingency.

Disagree........ that generalist option is way worse than say Focused Specasist or Domain Wizard. Also, it doesn't get access to the Immediate Magic ACFs all of which are quite good. Finally, Craft Conitgenct Spell feat.

[Yuki Akuma]

The Elf Generalsit is generally worse than a normal specialist - they get one extra spell slot, while a specialist starts with two and goes from there.

[kentma57]

Well I usualy play Sorcerers so yeah...
When I play a Wizard I usualy don't ban schools(to represent someone who values all knowledge), when I do ban schools it means I am playing a character who loves/hates one thing. For example I'm playing a necromance, necromancers work with the natural world(if in an unnatural way) so I would never consider summoning something for outside or world(conjuration banned); Or I'm playing a conjurer I create matter, I would never thing of destroying it(evocation banned) and so on...

[Foryn Gilnith]

Conjuration is the only school I know of that even vaguely has the capacity to destroy matter.
From the roleplaying angle, I don't tend to view banned schools as intentional choices. My wizards aren't snooty enough to wholly close off options for the sake of power (though I am. :P) They're just natural disabilities.

[Draz74]

Disagree........ that generalist option is way worse than say Focused Specasist or Domain Wizard. Also, it doesn't get access to the Immediate Magic ACFs all of which are quite good. Finally, Craft Conitgenct Spell feat.

I didn't say Elf Generalist was an optimized build. Just that it's a lot more appealing than other Generalist builds. (And Yuki -- the extra spells it learns for free at each level are also a pretty nice advantage in some campaigns.)

And the Immediate Magic ACFs are pretty crappy except for Abrupt Jaunt (which is too good).

And Craft Contingent Spell is another good example of something I would ban as DM.

[kentma57]

Conjuration is the only school I know of that even vaguely has the capacity to destroy matter.

Conjuration vs evocation is more of the creation vs destruction than actual destruction of matter, but you get the idea(you are right though, I just messed up).

[Eldariel]

Frankly, in Core-only, you only need Necromancy or Evocation, not both. And thanks to Illusion replicating most of Evocation's best tricks, the choice tends to be quite easy. Not to mention, Enervation is a pretty good spell as far as offense goes. So yeah, banning Evocation and Enchantment is fine.

Due to this crap, most notably the HP increase across the boards, damage spells became much worse from AD&D to 3e, making Fireball, Lightning Bolt and company most-of-the-time-waste-of-time-compared-to-other-actions.


Glitterdust or Web can just plain knock people out of fight while Fireball or Bolt does nothing to their combat efficiency. As such, Wizard is better off making the opponents inefficient in combat, efficiently one-shotting them out of it with lower level spells, than he is dealing damage that won't kill them and thus knock them out of the fight.

[Crow]

Using Illusion spells to make up for spells like Wind Wall, or Contingency will heavily depend on what your DM is willing to let you get away with. They may rule (and could argue a case for) that whatever effect you are aiming for is only % likely to occur, as inanimate objects such as arrows are immune to illusions (in the case of wind wall), and the wizard "faking" contingency knows his spell is an illusion (disbelief). Consult your DM.

That said, I prefer generalist wizards. The only time that specialization really makes a difference is in the lower levels. By the mid to high levels, your wizard has so many tricks available that one extra spell per level isn't much of an issue anymore. Really, the only specialist wizard I would play would be a Diviner (ban evocation). There is a useful Divination spell at just about every level, and you're not really giving up much to get it.

[deuxhero]

Uh, isn't Disintegrate transmutation?

[Tyndmyr]

Using Illusion spells to make up for spells like Wind Wall, or Contingency will heavily depend on what your DM is willing to let you get away with. They may rule (and could argue a case for) that whatever effect you are aiming for is only % likely to occur, as inanimate objects such as arrows are immune to illusions (in the case of wind wall), and the wizard "faking" contingency knows his spell is an illusion (disbelief). Consult your DM.

I bypass this issue by banning enchantment and illusion when I go specialist, frequently. Seriously, true seeing ends up getting pulled out quite often on the big stuff anyhow, and the amount of immune to mind-affecting creatures out there is insane.

So...you lose almost nothing of value at high level.

That said, I prefer generalist wizards. The only time that specialization really makes a difference is in the lower levels. By the mid to high levels, your wizard has so many tricks available that one extra spell per level isn't much of an issue anymore. Really, the only specialist wizard I would play would be a Diviner (ban evocation). There is a useful Divination spell at just about every level, and you're not really giving up much to get it.

It's not so much total spell volume as it is about
A. options
B. more of your highest level spell.

Generally, I tend to routinely burn through my top two levels of spells, so focused specialist or stock specialist means Im casting another top level spell(or two) instead of one a couple levels lower. That's significant.

As for options...having more spells prepared just makes you more versatile.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Uh, isn't Disintegrate transmutation?

Yes, yes, it is. It's also pretty bad for damage, considering it's an attack roll (5% chance of failure, minimum) with SR: Yes, and a Fort Save (Good luck!).

Now, what your friend is doing with banning Evocation is simply following some pretty good advice. Nearly anything Evocation can do, Illusion, Conjuration, or something else can do better. See also: without metamagic shenanigans, the damage is also sub-par, and, of course, everyone else can do that, too.

[taltamir]

first, direct damage is horribly sub par tactic... although it is mitigated if you min max it with meta magic reducers.

for some godawful reason WOTC made all the best blasting spells and best spells that deal energy (fire, ice, lightening, acid, sonic) conjuration.
along with giving them ridiculous things like the orb line...

To add insult to injury, conjuration also gets shadow conjuration... which mimics evocation. and teleport.

what hurts in losing evocation is losing contingency (unless shadow evocation can do it; or your DM stealth / non stealth nerfs it) and losing the wall of force and cage of force... although frankly, a prismatic wall / sphere are far superior and those are abjuration.

I think any conjuration spell that deals energy damage should be evocation... and maybe roll in a teleport just to make it hurt to ban the school. (to keep people from baning enchantment outright. Take the spells that make you immune to enchantment and make then add resistance or have a limit of X spell levels.. instead of just having a level 1 spell make you immune to an entire school)

[Crow]

Generally, I tend to routinely burn through my top two levels of spells, so focused specialist or stock specialist means Im casting another top level spell(or two) instead of one a couple levels lower. That's significant.

As for options...having more spells prepared just makes you more versatile.

It's a matter of playstyle then. I tend to hold on to those top level spells and use them more sparingly, so that when I do need them, I can really nova.