4e world invades a 3.5.

[urkthegurk]

The new edition sparked a new campaign for my group, on a new plane. I've been DMing this campaign for years, and I didn't really like the cataclysm I'd have to wreak to adapt the plane to a non-vancian magic system, among other things. It would Mess Stuff Up.

I like the new edition, trouble is, I also like the old edition. Solution, you ask? Use both!

The worlds I have made will now proceed to invade each other. My knowledge of the rules is not perfect, unlike my chiseled physique. So I was hoping you awesome folks of GitP could help me out. What, precisely, are the differences? How will the rulesets interact?

The old world is very middle-agey, they get invaded by demons every couple of centuries, which tends to keep the population down. The other world is more steampunk, more advanced, and has way less magic just floating around.

I'm not sure what all the problems will be, my main concern is understanding relative power levels between 3e and 4e. I don't actually want it to be balanced, because I want it to feel like the the two editions are actually fighting. But I want to keep track of which side is more powerful, and why.

My main divide I've solved so far is the magic system, but its not so much solved as I have an idea of how to solve it. I figure the vancian magic system on the 3'5 world works because there's so much ambient magic in the 'weave' of leylines that they can just cast in seconds what for a 4e caster would just be an hour-long ritual. But they have to very careful: Uncontrolled magic tends to blow people up, and not always the people you'd like. For instance, yourself. Contrariwise, casters from the 3e world would find the 4e world almost magic-dead, since there are no real ley-lines anywhere like they're used too.

So mechanically, 3e casters have to make a check to cast the spell at all, and 4e casters take feedback damage if they fail a (much harder) check. I'm not sure precisely what the DCs should be based on.

So that's an example, feel free to weigh in on that, or whatever else 3e vs 4e related you can think of. This is a puzzler to get through.

EDIT: assume that we're working with core rules only, we can ntack on other bits as we need them, but we can't just allow anything in this. Too much madness, it will blur the lovely image of whole editions dissolving into chaos...

[Zexion]

This is an excellent idea, but will be very difficult to pull off. The "steampunk" idea sounds exellent: try picking up some ideas from some of the new steampunk books around (you know the one I'm talking about)

For pulling the actual thing off, you are going to need a lot of spare time. A lot.

[Chrono22]

Barbarians from 3.5 will marvel at how fragile the 4e world is.
No object hardness + two handed raging power attack = Will it blend?

[Zexion]

I agree. Barbarians are going to be smashing adamantine if you don't work out a way to blend it all.

[Chrono22]

I agree. Barbarians are going to be smashing adamantine if you don't work out a way to blend it all.

No this is what I meant.
http://www.youtube.com/user/blendtec?blend=1&ob=4

Another sticking point would be 3.5 damaging spells vs. 4e healing surges. Both are expendable resources, but 3.5 spells do far more damage... enough to take a bloodied creature to negatives at least.

[Lappy9000]

My knowledge of the rules is not perfect, unlike my chiseled physique.

[urkthegurk]

Bam! Objects have hardness. Problem solved?

I'm o-kay with 3.5 casters dealing stupid amounts of damage. They have to make those skill checks, and they have volatile magic to command. (It has the unfortunate side effect of making wizards the only playable class, but whatever, they already are.) What I am less okay with is only 4e people having healing surges, it seems silly.

Of course, now I'm suggesting taking the 4e balancing factor away, which won't really work. I think that 4e casters should be able cast rituals way faster in the 3.5 world. How would that work?

Its not inconceivable too that characters will start quickly learning tricks from each other, like different ways to cast magic, and feats.

I think one of the only ways to limit this to the semi-sane is to allow only core rules, with a few exceptions. If we're already blending two systems, we don't need it more broken then it is. I'll add that to the title post.


EDIT: how do the 4e and 3e hp-curves compare? I know 4e characters starty out with more. Does 3e catch up?

[dragonfan6490]

The 4e power curve starts higher than the 3e, but 3e catches up about mid level and then passes 4e. 30th level 4e<20th level 3e.

[Asbestos]

So mechanically, 3e casters have to make a check to cast the spell at all, and 4e casters take feedback damage if they fail a (much harder) check. I'm not sure precisely what the DCs should be based on.

This makes the 4e Martial classes better than the non-Martials. Since the Martials are balanced against the other power sources, implementing a check for casters makes the 4e World a very Martial world.

[Mando Knight]

The 4e power curve starts higher than the 3e, but 3e catches up about mid level and then passes 4e. 30th level 4e<20th level 3e.

Mostly for casters, though. Based on experience, without pulling out any actual numbers, I'd estimate that they're roughly still ahead of tier-5 characters, and roughly equal with tier 3 or 4, with variance depending on cheese exploited by either side.

However, the math doesn't add up right when you're trying to switch from edition to edition and using their numbers as-is. For example, the oldest Red Dragons double their HP in 4e, and have a much higher Reflex Defense than a 3.5's Touch AC or Reflex save, but its attack bonus is much lower (and in fact actually on par with its own defenses rather than having the ability to hit itself 95% of the time) and its breath weapon deals less than half as many dice in damage in return for having a static damage modifier. It's also smaller, with the largest size in 4e being Gargantuan rather than Colossal.

[urkthegurk]

Dragons use 4e. They have the ability to learn some 3e feats and tricks, maybe base their paragon path of a prestige class, but their core powers have always been 4e (special attacks.)