Epic Spellcasting

[mesharmour]

Can someone tell me exactly why a level 21 wizard can "win the game" with epic spellcasting? The d20 srd is not very specific when it comes to epic spellcasting.

[Yuki Akuma]

Leadership + Gate + multiple spellcaster mitigation = insanely low DCs for insanely powerful epic spells.

[Arundel]

You answered your own question. Its because its not very specific. There are loopholes that allowed any spell imaginable to exist and have no casting cost.

The search function is your friend by the way.

[Eloel]

Can someone tell me exactly why a level 21 wizard can "win the game" with epic spellcasting? The d20 srd is not very specific when it comes to epic spellcasting.

The epic wizard gates in a bunch of Solars (9th level casting angels)
He Mindrapes them (kinda like Dominate, only more serious)
He creates a spell with billions of effects for a HUGE spellcraft DC. (smt like Immune to Everything and NI bonus to all stats)
He then makes all the Solars donate 9th level slots to the ritual, for -17 DC per solar. With sufficient Solars, DC is now 0

Time and price is based on DC - 0 DC means no price nor XP cost.

Good Game.

[mesharmour]

So you're saying that the only way epic spellcasting is viable is if the spellcaster gates in a lot of solars then.

[chiasaur11]

So you're saying that the only way epic spellcasting is viable is if the spellcaster gates in a lot of solars then.

Not only. It's just the most well known and easiest method of dropping DCs.

[mesharmour]

So what other ways can you drop the dc's then?

[Eloel]

So what other ways can you drop the dc's then?

Leadership is one that comes to mind.
Making all immunites seperate spells that need 100 days (for alot of reduction in DC), and then casting them in your own fast-time plane is another one that comes to mind.

[mesharmour]

Leadership is one that comes to mind.
Making all immunites seperate spells that need 100 days (for alot of reduction in DC), and then casting them in your own fast-time plane is another one that comes to mind.

Immunities? And I see that one needs an extremely long time in order to cast a single epic spell then.

[taltamir]

emulating a level 5 spell with epic magic is impossible until about level 60, unless you use mitigation. The mitigation system allows you to mitigate any spell down to DC0 and development cost of: 0gp, 0xp, and 1 day
There are multiple methods of mitigation that are easily and infinitely stackable.

and the example spells include creating your own outsiders, creating your own planes of existence, prolonging your life, and giving yourself arbitrarily high inherent bonuses (the stuff you normally need a wish or a tome to do) at no cost.
EDIT: also, invisibility only pierced by epic magic / gods, anti magic field where only epic magic works, etc etc.

A level 21 wizard has as much strength, constitution, dexterity, wisdom, intelligence, and charisma as it cares to have...
you can also give yourself over 30 different types of stacking AC bonuses, again, arbitrarily high, and so on and so forth.
If you are in a rush, it takes a minimum of 2 days to get yourself a permanent non dispellable +4 per type of AC... so in two months you have already gotten +120 to AC.

and these are just the tip of the iceberg. You can use example spells to make a clone of a divinity 21+ god and have said clone maintain its divinity and be under your power... sure its got half the HP and its got some weaknesses, but so what? it just uses its 21+ divinity to raise you up to its own divinity rank.

It also doesn't matter if you are a cleric, wizard, whatever, as long as you are a full caster (gains 9th level casting before level 20), you get the exact same epic casting mechanic at level 21.

there are many others methods... the epic handbook book is incompatible with the books describing deities, no deity possess epic casting (or epic levels in any single class; example deities have things like fighter 20/wizard 20/cleric 20), and a level 21 caster who has undergone the things described above can kill all the deities as described with ease. (even without making himself an over deity).

quite frankly, it is the worst thought out POS ever published by WOTC.
They say of course that the DM should "keep things in check", but the system they came up with is beyond useless... it is better for the DM to literally pull out spells out of his nether regions then to have anything to do with epic casting.

[mesharmour]

Okay so what seed is "clone" in under exactly?
Also, adding AC increases the spellcraft DC, which would require extra mitigating factors, which would...inevitably need more solars, wouldn't it.
Also, under the seed "fortify", it states that a permanent inherent bonus caps at +5, unless your wizard is willing to keep recasting this epic spell with his 9001 solars.

[Eloel]

Okay so what seed is "clone" in under exactly?
Also, adding AC increases the spellcraft DC, which would require extra mitigating factors, which would...inevitably need more solars, wouldn't it.

Cast Genesis first (suck up the 5k XP cost, as long as it keeps you at 21th level XP, you're OK. If not, go kill tarrasque with immense amounts of spells while flying for the XP) - 2160000x time trait.
For the spell, go 100 days (1 round in 'real world') which is like -220 DC. You can now develop & cast any epic spell of upto 220 DC for free in mere rounds.

Can you not think an application for that?

Edit: Permanent +19 to Armor and +19 to Natural Armor is 2 spells at DC220, so are +4 to Deflection, Insight, Sacred, Luck, Morale and any other bonus type you can think of.

[taltamir]

Okay so what seed is "clone" in under exactly?
Also, adding AC increases the spellcraft DC, which would require extra mitigating factors, which would...inevitably need more solars, wouldn't it.

That is why I said you are limited (at first, before you really start to break the system) to a +4 per type per 2 days (1 day to research, 1 day to cast).

Also, under the seed "fortify", it states that a permanent inherent bonus caps at +5, unless your wizard is willing to keep recasting this epic spell with his 9001 solars.

can someone else field this one? I don't remember the exact work around here.

[mesharmour]

Yeah, but if you cast the spell in your demiplane, then it'll only affect your demiplane, unless you're casting that spell that gives you that armour class bonus or something of the sort.

[mesharmour]

That is why I said you are limited (at first, before you really start to break the system) to a +4 per type per 2 days (1 day to research, 1 day to cast).



can someone else field this one? I don't remember the exact work around here.

It's in the epic level handbook, and there's nothing that says it's limited to a +4 per type.

[Eloel]

Yeah, but if you cast the spell in your demiplane, then it'll only affect your demiplane, unless you're casting that spell that gives you that armour class bonus or something of the sort.

Just give yourself arbitrarily high Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha

Now you're immune to pretty much everything. You can now one-hit anything you wish with a sword you're not even proficient in, thanks to Str...

[mesharmour]

Just give yourself arbitrarily high Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha

Now you're immune to pretty much everything. You can now one-hit anything you wish with a sword you're not even proficient in, thanks to Str...

Again, the inherent bonuses cap at +5, as it says under the "fortify" seed.

[Eloel]

Again, the inherent bonuses cap at +5, as it says under the "fortify" seed.

Just go Enhancement bonus and cast it every 'real life' day, not like it takes much time...

[mesharmour]

Are you going to bundle all of these stat bonuses into one spell or several, because there is still a spell limit per day.

Also, if time passes so fast in your demiplane, then the spell would already faded by the time you finish casting it.

[Eloel]

Are you going to bundle all of these stat bonuses into one spell or several, because there is still a spell limit per day.

Also, if time passes so fast in your demiplane, then the spell would already fade by the time you finish casting it.

Will bundle into one spell - the spell takes effect once you finish it, not when you start it.

I'm only providing these because you didn't like the Solar idea...

[robotrobot2]

Another good one is to use the summon seed on a CR NI creature and then increase the duration to permanent. Make it immune to dispelling and antimagic and then mitigate it into oblivion. Instant super-strong monster under your absolute control. Great Wyrm Force Dragon, anyone?

[mesharmour]

Will bundle into one spell - the spell takes effect once you finish it, not when you start it.

I'm only providing these because you didn't like the Solar idea...

Even if you finish you spell, you're still stuck in your demiplane.

[Yuki Akuma]

Even if you finish you spell, you're still stuck in your demiplane.

Have you never heard of Plane Shift?

[mesharmour]

Another good one is to use the summon seed on a CR NI creature and then increase the duration to permanent. Make it immune to dispelling and antimagic and then mitigate it into oblivion. Instant super-strong monster under your absolute control. Great Wyrm Force Dragon, anyone?

...Except the spell dc before being mitigated is 690. Even with the fancy demiplane that we now have, it still leaves 470 DC to be dealt with, again leaving us to resort to the large numbers of solars that we have to gate in.

[mostlyharmful]

Are you going to bundle all of these stat bonuses into one spell or several, because there is still a spell limit per day.

Also, if time passes so fast in your demiplane, then the spell would already faded by the time you finish casting it.

so you make them permenant. And it doesn't matter what plane you cast the buff in, it goes with you when you leave.

With mitigation Epic Spells break the game in any way imaginable. without mitigation there's no point whatsoever in the feat, it's not that it isn't worth the epic feat slot it's that it isn't worth anything... at all... the mechanics as written are sucktastic in the extreme.

Epic casting with time extras in a fast demiplane can make minions to back up your casting, which can fuel a bigger casting which makes more minions... who then all work together to create uberminions who etc etc etc etc....

If you don't fancy creating minions just use planer bindings, you know, that spell that's been breaking the game for many levels before you get epic castings... or else gate in great wyrms and solars and order them to accept the mindrape to obey you forever, let them go and then they planeshift back to serve you forever...

[mesharmour]

so you make them permenant. And it doesn't matter what plane you cast the buff in, it goes with you when you leave.

With mitigation Epic Spells break the game in any way imaginable. without mitigation there's no point whatsoever in the feat, it's not that it isn't worth the epic feat slot it's that it isn't worth anything... at all... the mechanics as written are sucktastic in the extreme.

Epic casting with time extras in a fast demiplane can make minions to back up your casting, which can fuel a bigger casting which makes more minions... who then all work together to create uberminions who etc etc etc etc....

Again, you can't make them permanent unless you want them to cap at +5. And now we're just saying that we need many minions to actually be able to do anything with epic spellcasting.

[Eloel]

Again, you can't make them permanent unless you want them to cap at +5. And now we're just saying that we need many minions to actually be able to do anything with epic spellcasting.

Just perma-Summon some Sylphs to your plane. It's smt like DC70 for perma-sylph. Cast it over and over again, and make them contribute. Now you don't even have to persuade them - they HAVE TO serve.

When you have enough of them to mitigate the casting to 1 round, you're golden - rapid-produce Sylphs. Get any spell of any DC you wish afterwards.


If Epic Spellcasting itself makes the cheesy spells easier, it breaks itself...

[taltamir]

It's in the epic level handbook, and there's nothing that says it's limited to a +4 per type.

I thought I was clear about this... lemme explain.
the only thing limiting you to a +4 is the fact that you just hit level 21, and have yet to get anything truely abusive. So your first act is to spend a day researching a DC0 spell that gives a permanent +4 and requires several helpers to cast as part of its mitigation, you use summon monster to summon monsters that cast spells, and have them contribute. You are limited to +4 because at the moment, you still have a limited amount of summons per day.
Assuming it is the first thing you do as an epic caster... after taking those 2 months to get a +120 to AC you go ahead and start working on getting yourself an infinite amount of permanent helpers to get arbitrarily high bonuses...

although, why you are casting perma +4 to AC spells instead of getting to work on getting yourself permanent helpers is beyond me. But for the sake of his example that is what it works out as.
get it now?

so yes, if you first get yourself an army of solars the +AC bonus isn't +4, its +infinity

BTW, other mitigations factors that are temp HP spells + backlash requiring spells, time increases (so it takes 100 days to cast, big whoop. You are in your fast time demiplane and wearing a ring of sustenance)

[mostlyharmful]

you can't make inherent bonuses above +5... you can however give your wizard a +938884893020 competence bonus with a permenant epic spell, you just need a little mitigation. Likewise with sacred, profane, luck, enhancement, anybullcrap bonuses.

you can do all kinds of things without minions it just takes time (or Genisis), it's just the over the top crazy that comes with minions, also you can make minions that last more than long enough without making them permenant, or you can make true breeding minions, or you can bind minions, or you can mindgank minions or or or or or.......

Worst. Feat. In. The. Game.

Either it's broken because it's useless or it's broken because it makes you an overdeity which isn't much fun.

[mesharmour]

Alright, I see what we're dealing with now. Thanks for your help guys.