[3.5] Need help building an RP heavy Barbarian

[The Red Geist]

Hey everyone, I'm a newbie around these parts (and a newb to the D&D world) so I figured asking for help is the best thing to do when you've got questions. A friend of mine has started a level two campaign, this being our second as a group, and he's put a focus on building our character fluff for arbitrary reasons. Probably for future baddies and such. Not that I mind, I'm actually enjoying working on a character history and personality.

So I've cooked up a Human Tribal Barbarian for our next campaign. He's a self exiled spiritual warrior, a Lion Totem Barbarian, in pursuit of "the true way of the warrior." As I was looking up some of the more interesting Prestige Classes out there, I stumbled across the Primeval, a class that would fit perfectly with his deep connection to nature. However I'm finding a lot of difficultly in making it all come together.

He's a Barbarian/Ranger (I took the Ranger class for the Endurance feat and the skills so it's not cross-classing), and while I've been told going Druid would be much better for the Primeval prestige, it wouldn't fit his character. I've wanted to incorporate Fist of the Forest into his build as well somehow, but taking those prerequisite feats makes the whole idea unappealing as the prestige already requires two feats.

Basically, I'm making this difficult because of the backstory I've developed for him, and I'd appreciate any assistance in fleshing out a working build in greater detail. The DM is a pretty lenient guy as long as he can pull the prestige or class from a book, but I don't think he'll be very open to me using a non-WotC class.

I've taken Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty as my two feats, and I'm trying to gear the character towards unarmed combat which is why the Fist of the Forest was an prestige. His stats are below:

Str: 18
Dex: 17
Con: 16
Int: 15
Wis: 15
Cha: 14

Thanks in advance for the help!

[Optimystik]

Are flaws allowed? That's two more feats right there, and doing so can even add spice to your roleplaying concept. Even if you don't like the premade ones, you and your DM can come up with your own.

[The Red Geist]

Are flaws allowed? That's two more feats right there, and doing so can even add spice to your roleplaying concept. Even if you don't like the premade ones, you and your DM can come up with your own.

I'd have to ask him first to see if it's okay, but thanks for the suggestion.

Edit: He's approved the use of flaws and is allowing me to create a flaw that makes sense with my character. That would make taking some feats easier. Thanks again for that.

[The Red Geist]

Err, any other tips? I still don't know exactly how to piece this all together.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

You must take Craft: Poetry and use it at every opportunity.

[Runestar]

What sort of fighting style would the true way of the warrior involve? From your choice of primeval, it seems you want some sort of bestial theme.

I am thinking perhaps going barb/bear warrior/warshaper (the later 2 are prcs found in complete warrior, if you have them). While frenzied berserker is tempting, I would not recommend it for new players (no offense, but it does tend to complicate battles somewhat).

Unfortunately, this build only comes together very late (since you need bear warrior to qualify for warshaper).

One alternative is to see if your DM will allow the divine minion template, reflavoured to suit your campaign. The general build stub is divine minion human barb4/warshaper4/bear warriorX. Alternatively, play a changeling or shifter (eberron/MM3).

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a

[Adumbration]

Care to specify current level and race? From what you've said, you have at least 3 levels - for the two feats - unless you're a human. Mostly curious because if you are a human, you get an extra exalted feat at 1st level due to the Vow of Poverty.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

What sort of fighting style would the true way of the warrior involve?

Alcohol, and lots of it.

Care to specify current level and race? From what you've said, you have at least 3 levels - for the two feats -

At least 4 levels, since he's a Barbarian/Ranger with at least three Ranger levels for Endurance.

[Ernir]

For any charisma-Barbarian, I say Intimidating Rage (Complete Warrior) + Imperious Command (Drow of the Underdark) + Never Outnumbered (Skill trick, Complete Scoundrel) is a must, I say.

[The Red Geist]

Thanks for the quick responses, everyone! I appreciate any help I can get on constructing this character.

What sort of fighting style would the true way of the warrior involve? From your choice of primeval, it seems you want some sort of bestial theme.

For this character, his closeness to nature and the spirit of the land (a deity we made up based on an African spirit god) is what gives him strength. He's learned from the planet and from those who live in concert with it, so a focus on drawing closer to natural power from the body's own abilities is his ideal. Unarmed fighting, which is why I felt a level of synergy with the FotF Prestige, would be the direction I see him moving towards.

At least 4 levels, since he's a Barbarian/Ranger with at least three Ranger levels for Endurance.

Care to specify current level and race? From what you've said, you have at least 3 levels - for the two feats - unless you're a human. Mostly curious because if you are a human, you get an extra exalted feat at 1st level due to the Vow of Poverty.

Oh, sorry for not specifying. My character is a human with two flaws, level two. He doesn't have Endurance yet, but I did take the class so that he'd get the Endurance skill without me having to waste the feat on it. After taking the two flaws I've given him Toughness and Self-Sufficient, two prerequisites for the Primeval Prestige.

I was pointed in the direction of Chaos Monk in order to bolster his natural weapon direction and to take a class he otherwise couldn't because of his Chaotic Good alignment, but I don't know which book it was put in. A friend of mine said it was a magazine and I don't know if the DM would be okay with that, even if it was a WotC magazine.

Synergy wise, I like the thematic flow of a Barbarian/Ranger/Chaos Monk/Fist of the Forest/Primeval (man, that's a mouthful), I just don't see how that could work and this character could retain some level of usefulness to the party.

You must take Craft: Poetry and use it at every opportunity.

I... can't tell if you're messing with me or not.

[Eldariel]

Well, there's a handbook in my signature; look into that. I suggest you ask your DM to allow you to use Improved Toughness (given you qualify) [Complete Warrior] for your prerequisite to Primeval since Toughness is just a miserable feat in a few levels. And Primeval works just fine for Barbarians; don't worry about that.

Are you going with Dire Lion for your Primeval form? That part is very important for your future planning, since it's a good idea to focus on maximizing what your animal form provides.


I'd consider following shell:

Barbarian 2/Ranger 3/Fist of the Forests 3/Primeval ->

You qualify, have no Monk-levels (Chaos Monk is decent, but loses a point of Base Attack Bonus causing you to enter Primeval on level 10 earliest) and make all the prerequisites. FotF sees to your unarmed strikes (combinable with your natural attacks from Lion) being respectable and gives you quite the some AC. You'll be a strong frontliner very capable of ripping things to shreds.

And yeah, Intimidating Rage is a decent idea. Extra Rage too, since you are unlike to have too many Barbarian-levels. You can use the Ranger-level to gain some combat style useful to your present profession (Crystal Keep has a nice list of the alternatives), such as gaining Power Attack. You could also ask for Multiattack instead of Two-Weapon Fighting on the grounds that you use natural weapons and it's practically the same thing.


Though I must warn you that if you go with Vow of Poverty, you'll have SERIOUS issues affecting flying opponents or similars.

[The Red Geist]

I'll talk to the DM to see if he might let me take Improved Toughness instead--he's been pretty easy-going so far, but he's a by the book kind of guy (more so for his sake since he's a new DM, too). And yes, I was planning to have the character go Dire Lion.

I'd consider following shell:

Barbarian 2/Ranger 3/Fist of the Forests 3/Primeval ->

That makes looking at this all a lot less confusing. Thanks a lot! The Variant Ranger combat styles would be great since that's less feats to take on in order to make the FotF prerequisite. I thought about a Wildshape Ranger since that would mean I'd get to go into Primeval Wildshape more often, but this just seems to make more sense overall.

As for the Vow of Poverty, well, the more I look into it and hear about it, the less enthusiastic I am. It seemed great since it gives some nice benefits around mid level, but the fact that it stops at level 15 and that, as you've pointed out, I wouldn't have a means of fighting flying critters since I couldn't use a magic item to fly... I dunno. The bonus Exalted Feats are nice, like Nemesis and that controlled rage, but most of them apply to Monks.

It makes sense for the character since the culture clash from his tribe to "modern" society is great and he doesn't value material possessions, but in the long run VoP doesn't seem worth it. Plus the campaign was started at level two, and we've started at 900 gold. I don't know how cash heavy this campaign is, but starting off with that could buy him so decent swag, I think.

Should I drop VoP so that I can free up two feats? That's starting to seem more logical now.

[DragonBaneDM]

What your Barbarian rages like says a lot for his character.

There are a few ways to go here:

Mystic Rager: Your barbarian turns shiny and primal energies swirl around him while he strikes down his foes, roaring like a lion.

Psychopath: Your neck arteries break from internal pressure as you gnaw into your enemies severed pancreas.

Calm Fury: You just put on a mile long stare and speak in one word. Blood squirts in your eyes, and you don't even blink.

It's up to you, ultimately, but those are the three that I've seen the most.

[HCL]

What I would do is Barbarian 1/Ranger5/Primeval 10

after that you can sprinkle in some fist of the forest or what not too

Take the Wildshape ranger variant from unearthed arcana. That will give you an additional way to get into primeval form

I recommend human or dwarf for the race, if you really like fist of the forest you want to be a dwarf and get the regional feat from Races of Faerun that lets you use your unarmed strikes 2 handed

[Soranar]

considering your stats your Cha is going to be rather high

1 level of Battledancer gives you 1 BAB + improved unarmed strike (as monk) and your Cha bonus to AC

1 level of bard can also give you lots of roleplay, and a singing frenzy with vow of poverty can be strong since you get exalted feats like words of creation
and righteous wrath makes you able to do proper roleplay even while raging (+ the fear effect)

[Zaq]

I suggest you ask your DM to allow you to use Improved Toughness (given you qualify) [Complete Warrior] for your prerequisite to Primeval since Toughness is just a miserable feat in a few levels.

If you're interested in Totem Rager (which is a very fun prestige class), it can be worthwhile to take Azure Toughness [Magic of Incarnum] instead of Toughness. That, at least, gives you a point of essentia, which is a much greater benefit than just 3 HP, and it explicitly counts as Toughness for the purposes of prerequisites, so you don't even have to ask your DM about it. The actual HP-granting ability is weak (if you have enough essentia for it to matter, you'll have better things to do with your essentia), but then, so is the HP-granting ability of Toughness. Even if you don't go Totem Rager, you can benefit from Essentia by taking feats like Cobalt Charge (extra static damage for uberchargers), Cobalt Power (more power attack damage is always good), or Cobalt Rage (do I have to explain why you should like this?). It's totally possible to take a benefit from Incarnum without actually getting into a meldshaping class, and frankly, anything's better than just straight up Toughness.

[The Red Geist]

considering your stats your Cha is going to be rather high

1 level of Battledancer gives you 1 BAB + improved unarmed strike (as monk) and your Cha bonus to AC

1 level of bard can also give you lots of roleplay, and a singing frenzy with vow of poverty can be strong since you get exalted feats like words of creation
and righteous wrath makes you able to do proper roleplay even while raging (+ the fear effect)

Which book would I find the Battledancer class in? It sounds helpful with the bonuses the VoP gives to Charisma, but I mostly took the feat to balance out the problems Primeval has with subtracting from Int and Cha. At this point the usefulness of this feat is becoming less and less, so I don't know how useful the Battledancer or Bard levels would be.

Even if you don't go Totem Rager, you can benefit from Essentia by taking feats like Cobalt Charge (extra static damage for uberchargers), Cobalt Power (more power attack damage is always good), or Cobalt Rage (do I have to explain why you should like this?). It's totally possible to take a benefit from Incarnum without actually getting into a meldshaping class, and frankly, anything's better than just straight up Toughness.

This sounds like it would work well, thanks! Don't know if he has this book but hopefully I can pull the info up somewhere.

After giving it some thought, I'm probably gonna drop the VoP. I don't know what I'll do about equipment, but I'm pretty sure freeing up two feats will help in the long run. Maybe I'll take some of those Incarnum feats to spice up how I approach my Barbarian (who's gonna be more of a Ranger anyway). Do all of the Incarnum feats which have similar titles to the feats in PH count as the original move? Like Cobalt Power = Power Attack when learning new feats.

That aside, you guys have been great, I really can't thank y'all enough for helping me make sense of all this. Had I known D&D was so complicated... hell, I'd still play it. It's fun. :D
Now to pull this together.

[Soranar]

Dragon compendium has the battledancer class

[Runestar]

I actually like the idea of incarnum (totemist is literally "build your own warrior"), but I am not sure if the OP and his DM are willing to take the time to learn a new system.

[Zaq]

I actually like the idea of incarnum (totemist is literally "build your own warrior"), but I am not sure if the OP and his DM are willing to take the time to learn a new system.

The Incarnum feats aren't really a "new system." (I guess they're SORTA new, but nowhere near, say, actually making a meldshaper. It's easier than Bardic Music, frankly.) Now, if he wanted to make a Totemist, yeah, that's a new system, but just taking some Essentia-powered feats hardly counts as a new system (they're barely even recognizable as Incarnum, honestly, since they lack the swift-action shuffle and there's no mention of chakra slots).

Anyway, on the question of prereqs, it varies. Some of them (like Azure Toughness and Midnight Dodge) count as prereqs, but some of them (like Cobalt Expertise and Cobalt Critical) actually require the "base" feat as prereqs themselves. You pretty much just have to look at each one. That said, the ones that count as prereqs are usually the ones that are terrible (let's face it, Dodge and Toughness are among the weakest feats in the PHB. Maybe not the absolute weakest, but damn close.), and you WANT Power Attack anyway.

[The Red Geist]

Haven't posted here in a while, but I did want to thank you lot for taking the time to answer my questions. My character's all finished, and so far the campaign has started rather off rather fun. I'll be sure to stick around and not just lurk (although given my limited knowledge I don't know who I could assist in a topic), and if I have anymore questions, it's good to know I have a place to ask em.