Incantatrix

[AustontheGreat1]

So i recently found out that there are 2 different versions of the Incantatrix class. I've always been familiar with the Magic of Faerun version, but apparently there is one in Players Guide to Faerun as well. This may not be anything new to you guys but i am really excited about it.

Can anyone tell me what the primary differences are and which one is better?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

The one you find for free online? That's the worse one.

And it's still overpowered.

[arguskos]

The PGtF one is the less powerful, IIRC, and it's still crazy strong. Some minute things were tweaked, but not really much.

[sofawall]

The PGtF one is the less powerful, IIRC, and it's still crazy strong. Some minute things were tweaked, but not really much.

Other way around. 3.5 version is ridiculous, 3.0 version is powerful.

[arguskos]

Other way around. 3.5 version is ridiculous, 3.0 version is powerful.

Dammit. I just can't remember anything right today. D: Thanks for the correction though.

[Boci]

Usually when you go into a full casting wizard PrC you waste 1-2 feats to meet the requirments and then loose out on 2 bonus feats. The 10 level MoF one requires 1 useless feat and givs three.

[2xMachina]

And that feat tax can be paid with the Otyugh Hole. Only 10k I think.

You also pay with another banned school though.

Hmm, it'll be interesting to go Changeling Wizard Focused Dual Specialist Incantratrix. (A bit iffy on RAW, since you're using a ACF and racial sub lvl).

Banned schools? All, except Illusion/Transmutation (you're specialist for these) and Divination (cannot be banned). Kinda suck, but sounds fun. (Now, if you gestalt it with, say StP Erudite...)

[Boci]

And that feat tax can be paid with the Otyugh Hole. Only 10k I think.

Oh great, so you can actually end up with more feats than a striaght wizard.

You also pay with another banned school though.

Not if you already specialize in abjuration.

[Duke of URL]

Incantatrix is one of the first "prime offenders" I offer up when showing examples of PrCs that are patently better than staying in the base class.

The fact that Wizards gain practically no class features (except bonus feats) makes most Wizard PrCs fall into this category, but at least most of them require more annoying pre-reqs.

Incantatrixes actually wind up with more bonus feats over 10 levels than they would have gained as a pure Wizard, plus their other abilities.

[2xMachina]

Hmm, I think the Magic of Faerun one is 3.0

The 3.5 one (PGtF) makes you ban 1 school regardless (and you must not ban abjur, so the changeling 3 school only doesn't work). However, gives 4 feats.

[lesser_minion]

From what I can tell, the MoF one is strong, but not completely horrible - you don't get an obscene number of metamagic reducers at least.

It looks like the MoF version is just a case of giving you more than it takes from you, rather than basically giving every single spell you actually bother to cast the benefit of an obscene amount of metamagic fuelled by a cheesed out skill check.

MoF improved metamagic also doesn't let you buy off all of your metamagic by slapping it on a zero-cost metamagic feat (bizarrely, I think 3.5 was supposed to drop the concept anyway, in favour of just granting the benefit to every spell you cast).

[valadil]

IIRC the 3.5 one is broken because it lets you make spellcraft checks to retroactively add metamagic to duration spells. You can chain your Shield and then make it last all day, for instance.

It also has checks for taking over a duration spell cast by another wizard. This would be interesting if it weren't limited to incanatrices. But it's pretty silly that you can steal someone else's spell and they have no mechanics to take it back.

Oh and on top of that it gives 4 bonus metamagic feats and metamagic cost reduction among other things.

[Kylarra]

Incantatrix is one of the first "prime offenders" I offer up when showing examples of PrCs that are patently better than staying in the base class.

The fact that Wizards gain practically no class features (except bonus feats) makes most Wizard PrCs fall into this category, but at least most of them require more annoying pre-reqs.

Incantatrixes actually wind up with more bonus feats over 10 levels than they would have gained as a pure Wizard, plus their other abilities.

Eh, I'd rather offer up loremaster than incantrix. While incantrix is certainly OP, whereas loremaster is certainly not, the average wizard can just fall into loremaster accidentally with a single feat investment that they can quickly recoup and loses nothing at all. Whereas, incantrix does require you to specialize without "bonuses" and while it does recoup you sheer feat numbers, they all "have" to be metamagic.

[Tyndmyr]

Summary:

Otoyugh Hole is in Complete Scoundrel, and is not Incantatrix specific. I think it was less than 10k, too....like 5 or something. Anyhow, cheap for a feat. Even cheaper if you can just find the location to stay for a week.

MoF version is 3.0, and generally weaker. However, it gets the metamagic reducer a level earlier. I presume this is of value in certain highly optimized builds, and the class offers some fun stuff overall.

PgTF is 3.5, and offers pretty much the best stuff most mages want. Bonus metamagic feats. The ability to apply metamagic to spells cast by others. The ability to apply it to spells cast off items. Free metamagic uses/day. The ability to apply metamagic feats to existing effects. -1 metamagic modifier, just like the old version. Spellcraft needs to be pumped for most of these to function properly, but that's quite doable. Useful either as a straight 10 class, or as a dip to persist buffs all day.

Now, on the flip side, it's got some nasty requirements, including banning another school of magic. You also need to waste two feats of Spell Focus and GSF abjuration, which is almost entirely worthless. Iron Will is at least somewhat useful.

It's a really rough school for focused specialists...sure, its got great abilities, but banning four schools sucks.

[Tyndmyr]

Loremaster is probably a bigger offender, at least in a dip, yeah. Really easy to pick up, and it trades an early feat for a later feat. Plus, you get some mild bonuses and such, and it's not hard to get into. So, at least a dip of it goes well with nearly any wizard build, and going the full 10 is neither hard nor less useful than wizard. You lose bonus metamagic feats, but you gain secrets much more rapidly, which replicate several okish feats.

[Boci]

IIRC the 3.5 one is broken because it lets you make spellcraft checks to retroactively add metamagic to duration spells. You can chain your Shield and then make it last all day, for instance.

It also has checks for taking over a duration spell cast by another wizard. This would be interesting if it weren't limited to incanatrices. But it's pretty silly that you can steal someone else's spell and they have no mechanics to take it back.

Oh and on top of that it gives 4 bonus metamagic feats and metamagic cost reduction among other things.

So during the great update to 3.5 wizards looked at their customer feedback and some genius went "Hey look, sllortfognik says the Incantatrix is underpowered. Better fix that by allowing them to steal other casters spells and more free metamagic use. Oh and give the monk some minor numeral benefits,"

[valadil]

So during the great update to 3.5 wizards looked at their customer feedback and some genius went "Hey look, sllortfognik says the Incantatrix is underpowered. Better fix that by allowing them to steal other casters spells and more free metamagic use. Oh and give the monk some minor numeral benefits,"

Yeah, pretty much. If you want to give WotC the benefit of the doubt, it's possible they were testing new mechanics. I wouldn't object to the spell stealing if other casters could steal back. If they later released that ability as a feat it wouldn't be as big of a deal (although the incanatrix would still be giving out 5 free feats).

[2xMachina]

Summary:

Otoyugh Hole is in Complete Scoundrel, and is not Incantatrix specific. I think it was less than 10k, too....like 5 or something. Anyhow, cheap for a feat. Even cheaper if you can just find the location to stay for a week.

MoF version is 3.0, and generally weaker. However, it gets the metamagic reducer a level earlier. I presume this is of value in certain highly optimized builds, and the class offers some fun stuff overall.

PgTF is 3.5, and offers pretty much the best stuff most mages want. Bonus metamagic feats. The ability to apply metamagic to spells cast by others. The ability to apply it to spells cast off items. Free metamagic uses/day. The ability to apply metamagic feats to existing effects. -1 metamagic modifier, just like the old version. Spellcraft needs to be pumped for most of these to function properly, but that's quite doable. Useful either as a straight 10 class, or as a dip to persist buffs all day.

Now, on the flip side, it's got some nasty requirements, including banning another school of magic. You also need to waste two feats of Spell Focus and GSF abjuration, which is almost entirely worthless. Iron Will is at least somewhat useful.

It's a really rough school for focused specialists...sure, its got great abilities, but banning four schools sucks.

Actually, the 3.5 does not need the SF. The 3.0 does.

And well for the 3.0 version, dip Master Specialist to get them if you care (take SF, get GSF with 1 lvl).

[Cyclocone]

Look at the 3.0 version and contemplate the following sentance.

Because they have little offensive combat magic against normal creatures, [incantatrixes] prefer to avoid combat or travel with companions who balance their shortcomings.

I'm not at all sure WotC are even just remotely aware of what they make.

[Optimystik]

Druid has Planar Shepherd, Cleric has Dweomerkeeper... it's nothing to get worked up over.

[Boci]

I'm not at all sure WotC are even just remotely aware of what they make.

Read their dead levels post:

The monk is the only other core class, aside from the barbarian, that has no dead levels. Players always have something to look forward to with the monk, which boasts the most colorful and unique special abilities of all the character classes.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a

So there you have it folks. The monk is a wonderful class and free metamagic has limited offensive aplication. Although to be fair, "unique" hit the nail on the head and colourful doesn't have to be positive.

[Tyndmyr]

Actually, the 3.5 does not need the SF. The 3.0 does.

And well for the 3.0 version, dip Master Specialist to get them if you care (take SF, get GSF with 1 lvl).

Oh, really? Damn.

Yeah, I don't know what they were thinking with "lack offensive options" or w/e they said. I mean, its not as if they lose many wizard options for attack.

I think the idea was a pure battlefield control/buffing PrC, which would be powerful in itself, and the incantatrix can certainly be played that way, but it doesn't have to be.

[ken-do-nim]

Look at the 3.0 version and contemplate the following sentence:

Because they have little offensive combat magic against normal creatures, [incantatrixes] prefer to avoid combat or travel with companions who balance their shortcomings.



I'm not at all sure WotC are even just remotely aware of what they make.

That quote is copied straight out of the text for the 1st edition incantatrix, just so you know. (Dragon magazine issue 90). In 1E, incantatrixes have a separate spell list from magic-users and illusionists, in fact combining a bit of both, but are low on attack spells, hence the quote. Doesn't make any sense whatsoever in the 3E version where it is a prestige class that keeps the same spell list as before (albeit with more banned schools).

[ken-do-nim]

For those interested, I just started a discussion about the 1E incantatrix class over on Dragonsfoot. http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/vi...hp?f=1&t=40186

[taltamir]

That quote is copied straight out of the text for the 1st edition incantatrix, just so you know. (Dragon magazine issue 90). In 1E, incantatrixes have a separate spell list from magic-users and illusionists, in fact combining a bit of both, but are low on attack spells, hence the quote. Doesn't make any sense whatsoever in the 3E version where it is a prestige class that keeps the same spell list as before (albeit with more banned schools).

so its not that they played the incantantrix (3e) and concluded that it is weak, its that they set out to recreate a weak 1e class in 3e and ended up with a class that they thought still satisfied the whole being "weak" thing?

he gains a second specialized school, loses only 1 school of choice for it (except transmutation, to prevent people from accidently gimping themselves)...
he can still use items from banned school, and he keeps all the already known spells from banned school...
a generalist incantantrix is strictly better than a specialist in any school because he only had to bad one school for it and can still use items of banned school.

to top it off, he gets extra metamagic feats, -1 on all metamagic feats, and a few other nice things.

I can't think of a more powerful class.

[2xMachina]

Well, if you want to talk about the 3.0 one...

If it's an epic character, start taking Incantatrix at lvl 18. You've banned 1 school, but since you can use the spells you already knew, you've lost absolutely nothing. ECL 27, you now have 2 specialist schools, and is incantatrix to boot.

[Boci]

I can't think of a more powerful class.

Look 5 posts above.

[Tyndmyr]

I would argue for Initiate of Mystra, Shadowcraft Mage, and IoT7V being at least in the same class of power as Incantatrix.

Edit: Yknow, we should make a tier system for PrCs.

[Tavar]

We actually do have one.

Though I'd argue that while IoT7V is a good PrC, it's no where near the power of the others.

[2xMachina]

Pack ScM on top of Incantatrix. ScM with Arcane Thesis/Easy/Practical is good anyway, so you can pile even more metamagic, with 1 spell. With the capstone, that's -4 lvls PER metamagic. So, pile on the metamagics with no spell slot adjust.

Also, try getting a permanent Schism item. Now, get that schism mind of yours to add metamagic your blast spells for free.