What makes an NPC good or bad

[Mike_G]

I'd like to hear people's opinions/experiences of what makes a good NPC, or a nightmarish NPC.

What about long term, recurring NPC's? What if they adventure with the party? Is a more fleshed out NPC helping create a more immersive gameworld or stealing the spotlight?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

An actual, fleshed out character who helps the party without stealing their glory is more likely than not to be liked.

They key part is "stealing their glory", which is an unforgivable offense among adventurers.

To quote Yi-Gi-Oh Abridged,

Well, Pegasus kidnapped my grandfather, but Kaiba cheated in a card game, and that's unforgivable.

[Keshay]

A good NPC is one that gets a reaction from the players. If the players really want to kill the bad guy, or really want to help out the mother whose kid is lost in the evil woods, or if the players are actually bummed out when said kid they rescued goes werewolf and they have to kill her on the way back to return her to the grieving mother, then you have created/played good NPCs.

[valadil]

In my opinion, what ruins any NPC is a GM who is showing off. This can happen through mechanics or roleplay.

I'm going to go way out on a limb and guess that this thread is tangental to the DMPC thread. I don't think an NPC has to be a DMPC to be damaging to the game. In the first game I ran I had a quest giver who manipulated the party. No matter what they did he had some overly circuitous plot that let him take advantage of them. I don't think he was a DMPC (as he never went anywhere with the PCs or even had stats) but I certainly showed off his ability to be manipulative. It didn't do anything good for the game.

Despite a lengthy backstory, a good amount of depth, and immersive roleplay, that character was a bad NPC. He didn't steal the players glory the way that DMPCs are criticized for doing. But he was an outlet for me to show off to the players and they had little ability to shut him up.

[Radiun]

[...]kid they rescued goes werewolf and they have to kill her[...]

Bestow Curse: "You will forever remain in the decidedly less powerful form of a human."

seems to be no more powerful than a 50% chance to do nothing in one round.

Greater Bestow Curse if you're high level

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Bestow Curse: "You will forever remain in the decidedly less powerful form of a human."

seems to be no more powerful than a 50% chance to do nothing in one round.

I must use this one.

[FoE]

Giving NPCs short names is essential in making a good NPC. It might sound impressive to call the local lord Baron Gwyn do'rylll Nightsong Ravensway, but he's just going to become "that guy with the thing" to your NPCs. Do yourself a favour and give your NPCs simple names.

[Zaydos]

Bestow Curse: "You will forever remain in the decidedly less powerful form of a human."

seems to be no more powerful than a 50% chance to do nothing in one round.

Greater Bestow Curse if you're high level

I'd allow it on a true lycanthrope. Actually maybe give you some bonus XP for being creative.

[snoopy13a]

The short answer is:

One the players like

Players who like a very serious campaign will not appreciate a comic relief NPC while a bunch of jokester may view the same NPC as their favorite. Players who like games with black and white morals may not like a morally ambigious NPC. Even a powerful DMPC can be "good" if the players actually like being hobbits to the DMPC's Gandalf.

[dsmiles]

A good NPC is one that gets a reaction from the players. If the players really want to kill the bad guy, or really want to help out the mother whose kid is lost in the evil woods, or if the players are actually bummed out when said kid they rescued goes werewolf and they have to kill her on the way back to return her to the grieving mother, then you have created/played good NPCs.

This. PC reactions are what determines the quality of the NPC.

[Choco]

A good NPC is one that gets a reaction from the players. If the players really want to kill the bad guy, or really want to help out the mother whose kid is lost in the evil woods, or if the players are actually bummed out when said kid they rescued goes werewolf and they have to kill her on the way back to return her to the grieving mother, then you have created/played good NPCs.

This +1

If the NPC causes the desired reaction in the players (not just the PC's), then you have made a good NPC. Note this means the players dont have to like the NPC. If your desired reaction was for the players to hate the BBEG's guts and they now curse his name even when not in the game, you have created a good NPC.

[Giggling Ghast]

Personally, I like NPCs that are:

1) essential to the plot,
2) are substantially more powerful than the PCs and yet command them to perform tasks he could easily accomplish himself,
3) takes over the action whenever there's an enemy too powerful for the PCs to defeat, which are frequent in number.

My players love them too. I often see them grinding their teeth in excitement whenever my GMPCs join the party!

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I disagree, Candle Jack, becau

[Giggling Ghast]

Yeah. I win a lot of arguments that way.

[oxybe]

An actual, fleshed out character who helps the party without stealing their glory is more likely than not to be liked.

They key part is "stealing their glory", which is an unforgivable offense among adventurers.

this.

the worst offense was when i was playing a transmuter combat wizard. my strategy was to polymorph into a rhemoraz or treant, wade into combat and devour my enemies whole. i was a veritable engine of destruction. i wasn't optimized in the traditional sense, but i was made for combat (my character was a veteran of the last war) with my control spells, party buffs and shapeshifting.

then came the 2 NPCs. one of them sat on the sidelines ignored by the enemies waiting to help us if we needed it (just the way he said it sounded condescending). the second NPC just flipped out like a ninja on roids and it made shorter work of enemies then i did with her spring attack whirlwinds and showers of gore.

my wizard was kinda peeved at their attitudes. it didn't help that the GM had taken of all our gear before the game even began... at 7th level. so the barbarian had no gear (other then the big stick he found), the rogue had a masterwork "cursed" dagger (well, we all had one but what the curse was, no one ever found out other then we couldn't get rid of it), the other caster was a druid who was still learning 3.5 so didn't know how to take full advantage of his class abilities and i still had my spellbook and full arsenal of spells.

the game sorta got better later, but it still crashed and burned, mostly due to us wanting to distance ourselves from our two babysitting NPCs and the DM not knowing what to do with us.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Yeah. I win a lot of arguments that way.

Mind Crush!

What now, Candlejack? What no

[Radiun]

Mind Crush!

What now, Candlejack? What no

Quick, play D.D. Survivor!

[Totally Guy]

I'd like to hear people's opinions/experiences of what makes a good NPC, or a nightmarish NPC.

I thought the answer was alignment.

[BarbarianNina]

The best NPCs are usually developed in response to player need and interest. You can make intricate, interesting backstories and fascinating situations for an NPC-- but if he or she doesn't interest the players, a good DM will let other, more interesting NPCs take the spotlight. This may mean developing a full personality for a former 'piece of scenery,' but it lets the game flow after players' interests, and it's more likely to result in good roleplay and character development for PCs. It also makes the setting feel more like a world and less like a video game when that cute peasant girl, or the sarcastic nobleman, or the half-orc street kid, will actually talk to you if you show an interest in them-- and possibly turn into a story hook of some sort. The best NPCs I've made started as throw-away lines, or throw-away background I didn't expect to become important.

[Totally Guy]

In the system I run there's a mechanic that allow the Players to introduce an NPC.

So my guys might say "I'll find the guard medic, we need him right now!"

I'll say the Obstacle is 1, +1 because that's not a typical guard skill, +1 because he'll need to be willing to help and +1 because you need him right now. So you need 4 successes, remember you guys get +2 dice to finding guards and +1 die because you can help one another so with a base skill of 2 you roll 5 dice.

The players roll the dice. If successful I allow them to introduce the NPC into the game exactly as they wanted him. Plus they can even name him.

Failure means I grant the wish like an evil genie. They find the guard medic but he's drunk, for example. Or he doesn't exist at all.

The point is that I didn't have a Guard Medic in my notes or even in my game world. But if they get enough successes, they find him, exactly as they wanted.

Of course, if they ask for something stupid it makes the obstacle go way up. They could still potentially succeed but they're more likely to fail. If they do succeed Id be bound to introduce this character as they envisioned. But that's part of the fun.

[Rhiannon87]

The best NPCs are usually developed in response to player need and interest. You can make intricate, interesting backstories and fascinating situations for an NPC-- but if he or she doesn't interest the players, a good DM will let other, more interesting NPCs take the spotlight. This may mean developing a full personality for a former 'piece of scenery,' but it lets the game flow after players' interests, and it's more likely to result in good roleplay and character development for PCs. It also makes the setting feel more like a world and less like a video game when that cute peasant girl, or the sarcastic nobleman, or the half-orc street kid, will actually talk to you if you show an interest in them-- and possibly turn into a story hook of some sort. The best NPCs I've made started as throw-away lines, or throw-away background I didn't expect to become important.

Similar things have happened to me-- "important" guest-giver NPCs, the players barely remember their names, but the random half-fiend bard girl that tried to kill them gets converted to neutrality away from evil, and I have players actually asking me if she can travel with them. They REQUESTED a DMPC. Blew my mind, it did. (For the record, she did not become a DMPC. I'm a first-time DM, and I didn't feel confident in my ability to not make her annoying or something. So she's disappearing for a while, and she'll show up later, and then she might hang out with the party if they still want her to come along.)

I agree that the player reactions are the best way to determine if you've got a good NPC. A game I'm a player in, I was fairly giggling with glee when my character found out that her rival-- an enemy spy she thought had died a year ago-- was back and wanted to go another round of spy vs spy with her. I had a ton of fun with the NPC the first time, and I'm looking forward to tangling with him again now that both the character and I are more experienced.

[denthor]

My favorite NPC has been in two games a thief that I could rely on to fence items that came to me by less than lawful means.

In another one that could find me items in a less than lawful fashion quickly.

I like to play Cg/Ng/N characters. I do not ask questions or call the guard.

I will try a more lawful character sometime. Or never.

[JeenLeen]

Mechanics-wise, I like NPCs who can help the players in areas they are weak in. For example, a healbot in D&D when noone is cleric, or a rogue when no-one wants to be the 'Trapfinding' person. Or they just have info they can be persuaded to share with PCs, or misinformation for plot purposes.

Combat-wise, you can have the NPCs/DMPCs avoid stealing spotlight because:
1. they are too powerful to be concerned with it. This can be condescending, or that they are dealing with Lv 15 stuff for the mission while your party is handling smaller things. Or they are primarily working as diplomats or another plane, so your party is handling its region. I don't mind the occassional Deus Ex Machina with a DMPC--it can be cool if it's very rare (maybe even 1/campaign).

2. they do not want to fight because they could die. In a M:tA game, we have many allies who can help us, but none want to risk fighting the Technocracy or getting a lot of Paradox by helping us in our quests. We might get some intelligence or healing at the Chantry, and it's comforting that a Master is nearby, but the PCs are on their own for the most part.

For what personality makes a good NPC, it's hard to tell. I say flesh out your NPCs and see who the PCs choose to work with. This can be a lot of DM work, though, so I understand not wanting to make a city's NPCs when some might not even be met.

[Superglucose]

NPCs are good if they don't make me want to puke.


Also, @ the CJ/PP dialogue.

[pres_man]

Based on Serenity:

Good NPCs:
Sheppard Book
Wash (though the death was pretty pointless, probably forced to do it by some hater in the party)
Mr. Universe

Bad NPC:
River Tam

[FoE]

Bad NPC:
River Tam

River wasn't an NPC. She was a Monk PC and a blatant min/maxer who tooked the Brainwashed, Insane and Traumatized flaws to gain some crazy Strength and Dexterity bonuses.

To put it another way, if the group from Darths and Droids were playing a Firefly campaign, she'd be Pete's character.

(If you're wondering, Ben plays Mal, Jim plays Kaylee, Annie plays Simon and Sally plays Jayne. You were correct, Zoe and Wash were NPCs.)

[snoopy13a]

Based on Serenity:

Good NPCs:
Sheppard Book
Wash (though the death was pretty pointless, probably forced to do it by some hater in the party)
Mr. Universe

Bad NPC:
River Tam

River and Wash are PCs. Book used to be a PC but his player quit the previous session.

River's player texts during games so she doesn't always contribute while Wash's player cheated with the DM's girlfriend (hence the rocks fall, Wash dies result ).

[Optimystik]

She was obviously an Unarmed Swordsage imo.

[Glass Mouse]

Hm. One of the reocurring themes when it comes to bad NPCs seems to be when you simply. Can't. Do. Anything. About. Them. They're annoying, too bad, the DM likes them, and he'll get pissed off if you try to hurt them or give them a piece of your character's mind.


In my experience, it's tougher to make likeable NPCs than despicable ones. The friendly ones are usually seen as, well, NPCs. No face, no story, no relevance except as tools for the PCs.
Now, the NPCs that pose an obstacle, those you have to relate to. You have to analyse them, get to know the details (or the NPC will just crush you/run you over/imprison you/whatever).
This is just my experience, however.

Good PCs that work (stuff that hasn't been mentioned already):
- don't interact with other NPCs (sure, it's a prince you're travelling with, but you're obviously the big guys, so that ambushing rival uncle will talk to you instead).
- behaves realistically. This might be a personal preference, though, since I know some players get ticked off if NPCs are too hostile.
- what everyone else said.

Note, this is purely personal feelings. It all really depends on your group.

[Thurbane]

It's all about how memorable, unique, and the personality of the NPC. IMHO, a mechanically boring NPC can be very memorable if the DM hams it up, playing him with a larger than life personality.

Nearly every NPC I look back on with fond memories had a personality quirk that made them unique.