World of Paragon

[Nerdanel]

It occurred to me to wonder how things in general and class balance in particular would change if everyone in a world had a free Paragon template. For example, the stat increases would benefit everyone, but would they be enough to raise a MAD-character like Monk up one tier, since MAD-characters can take best advantage of +15 to every stat?

I think in the World of Paragon amulets of natural armor might not ever have been invented, and no one worth their Paragon int score would be using damage spells in battle or using non-thrown ranged weapons, since they don't get to enjoy Paragon damage increases, and everyone has tons of extra hp and fast healing anyway. Melee would be effective, and casters would have a lot of trouble piercing their opponents' high spell resistances.

On the other extreme, we might consider the world of 0 point buy. I think full casters would rule there, but only once they get their casting stat high enough to actually cast something worthwhile. In the low levels damage from physical weapons would be the king, and battles short and deadly, with long recovery rests in between since no one would have the stats to cast even Cure Minor Wounds on those levels.

[Asheram]

The paragon template, would this be added to All NPC's, creatures and inbetween?

[golentan]

It occurred to me to wonder how things in general and class balance in particular would change if everyone in a world had a free Paragon template. For example, the stat increases would benefit everyone, but would they be enough to raise a MAD-character like Monk up one tier, since MAD-characters can take best advantage of +15 to every stat?

I think in the World of Paragon amulets of natural armor might not ever have been invented, and no one worth their Paragon int score would be using damage spells in battle or using non-thrown ranged weapons, since they don't get to enjoy Paragon damage increases, and everyone has tons of extra hp and fast healing anyway. Melee would be effective, and casters would have a lot of trouble piercing their opponents' high spell resistances.

On the other extreme, we might consider the world of 0 point buy. I think full casters would rule there, but only once they get their casting stat high enough to actually cast something worthwhile. In the low levels damage from physical weapons would be the king, and battles short and deadly, with long recovery rests in between since no one would have the stats to cast even Cure Minor Wounds on those levels.

Well, the main thing it does (as you said) is nerf casters (through raising everyone's SR and granting Dispel. I think that monks actually become viable with their fast healing (the ability boosts give them a much higher AC, and if they can keep dodging they heal up nice). But ultimately I don't think anyone could win battles at low levels without superior numbers.

[Nerdanel]

The intention is that all PCs and NPCs have paragon. I'm not sure about the squirrels and the like. Things would get strange if ordinary forest animals had int 17.

Well, the main thing it does (as you said) is nerf casters (through raising everyone's SR and granting Dispel. I think that monks actually become viable with their fast healing (the ability boosts give them a much higher AC, and if they can keep dodging they heal up nice). But ultimately I don't think anyone could win battles at low levels without superior numbers.

I haven't done a thorough research of what spells don't give spell resistance, so I don't know exactly how useless casters would be. However, whacking monsters with a quarterstaff would be an attractive option compared to casting Magic Missile, let alone something like Burning Hands.

Anyway... I decided to do a little math on melee duels.

Let's say we have two unarmored level 1 warriors from the World of Paragon trying to kill each other with nonmagical daggers. Both have 25 in every stat and 27 hp. Their attack bonuses are +33 and their ACs 46. They can hit each other with a roll of 13, and on a non-critical hit they deal 1d4+27 damage.

This means that the character who first lands a hit pushes the opponent into negatives, after which the opponent bounces right back into nearly the maximum from his fast healing 20. But wait! Since both characters have Haste as a spell-like ability, the character who first rolls 13+ twice on the same round during the 45 turns both have can be under haste in one day and have two attacks/round wins automatically. Both characters have a 42% chance of rolling thus on their turn, so it's likely that the battle will actually be very short.

If, however both have already used their three daily hastes, the duel becomes a weird variant of padded sumo, with the winner being the person who can first roll 13+ 3 to 10 times (depending on the random dagger damage) in a row.

Anyway, this all is very academic, but it does have a "real life" application. I've noticed that when people try to balance casters and melee characters, they try to balance the classes, but I think balancing the characters' base stats and special qualities (without going to extremes like Paragon) is an unexplored avenue for this.

[KillianHawkeye]

Let's say we have two unarmored level 1 warriors from the World of Paragon trying to kill each other with nonmagical daggers. Both have 25 in every stat and 27 hp. Their attack bonuses are +33 and their ACs 46. They can hit each other with a roll of 13, and on a non-critical hit they deal 1d4+27 damage.

This means that the character who first lands a hit pushes the opponent into negatives, after which the opponent bounces right back into nearly the maximum from his fast healing 20. But wait! Since both characters have Haste as a spell-like ability, the character who first rolls 13+ twice on the same round during the 45 turns both have can be under haste in one day and have two attacks/round wins automatically. Both characters have a 42% chance of rolling thus on their turn, so it's likely that the battle will actually be very short.

If, however both have already used their three daily hastes, the duel becomes a weird variant of padded sumo, with the winner being the person who can first roll 13+ 3 to 10 times (depending on the random dagger damage) in a row.

Anyway, this all is very academic, but it does have a "real life" application. I've noticed that when people try to balance casters and melee characters, they try to balance the classes, but I think balancing the characters' base stats and special qualities (without going to extremes like Paragon) is an unexplored avenue for this.

I think you forgot to include the DR 10/epic that each guy has.

[Starscream]

The interesting thing would be if such a person made it to our world. In its own environment it would be no different from an average individual, but on earth a human, or even a dog would have almost godlike powers compared to most of us.

So I vote we call it Krypton.

[golentan]

The interesting thing would be if such a person made it to our world. In its own environment it would be no different from an average individual, but on earth a human, or even a dog would have almost godlike powers compared to most of us.

So I vote we call it Krypton.

Seconded.

And yeah, having looked at it I think that they don't overcome each other's DR. So in that example the two warriors fail to drop each other into negatives (when hasted) 351/400 attempts. They do better unarmed, because at least then they count as epic for overcoming the DR...

Another argument in favor of monk (able to do lethal unarmed damage and increase die size)...

Wow.

[Forevernade]

I think if you just did +10 to all stats and +SR=ECL the game would balance out like you say. No need all the other stuff which will just complicate the game.

[Nerdanel]

Oh, yeah, the DR. So that means that nonmagical daggers are out and nonmagical UNARMED DAMAGE is in. In the example both warriors drop their daggers immediately, and start hitting each other with their fists, since they pierce the DR and deal enough damage to just barely outpace a turn's fast healing per hit. Hitting the enemy with a quarterstaff is still better than casting Magic Missile though, since the quarterstaff gets bonus damage from the Paragon template.

It looks like the humble Monk might very well be the best class in the World of Paragon...

Starscream: I got this idea from Bakker's Prince of Nothing where the character of Kellhus should in D&D terms have the Paragon template, and I'm not exaggerating how superior he is to his surroundings. You might be interested in reading those books. Kellhus comes from a place where everyone is like that (due to a breeding program). And yes, Kellhus is a monk. I'd model him with 3.0 though due to how his Whirlwind Attack combines with the Flurry of Blows he does with his longsword. (He's not quite the standard monk since oriental monk weapons would not fit the setting. Also, I think he has psionics.) It's not all heroics and sunshine though. I'd peg Kellhus as textbook Lawful Evil.

Anyway, I think those are really good books.

[KillianHawkeye]

Everyone would have at least 1 level of Monk, because only the Monk's unarmed strikes technically count as natural weapons (and thus bypass the epic DR).

[dsmiles]

I prefer the racial paragon levels over the template.

[KillianHawkeye]

I prefer the racial paragon levels over the template.

Interesting, but not very helpful. The two are not remotely related.