First ToB build - help?

[Heliomance]

For a game where we're all undead. I wanted a highly mobile fighter, based around using jump and tumble to get around the battlefield easily and to have a very feral, animalistic feel to it. I figured that Tiger Claw was perfect for the feel, and so I might as well learn the ToB system like I've been planning to for ages. This is my current build: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetvie...sheetid=177627

Thoughts, comments, suggestions?

[Keld Denar]

How tied are you to GTG? I mean, its a good template, but its more for a Cha based character, IMO. I think you'd be better off with 2 more levels of Warblade. You'd gain a lot more HP from having 2 more HD AND a Con bonus. Since you already have Claw and Bite attacks as a Kreen, the ones you get from GTG are kinda redundant.

Also, it would be helpful if you could list a manevuer progression, instead of just the end results. Otherwise its hard to see what maneuvers you picked when and whatnot.

[Heliomance]

Need to be undead, and I thought GTG was the most flavourful undead template for the concept. If you can think of a better one, I'm all ears.

As for maneuver progression, I'm afraid I don't remember the order :S
I worked it out using Heroforge, adding and subracting maneuvers level by level, but I didn't keep track of what I did when.

[Boci]

Need to be undead, and I thought GTG was the most flavourful undead template for the concept. If you can think of a better one, I'm all ears.

Necropolitant on crystalkeep is LA: 0. Also see if you can get that fey initiative mystra feat or what ever its called to get int instead of con to level. You're melee. You need hitpoints.

[Ernir]

I'd think Swordsage fits your mobile concept better than Warblade does. Warblade only really has Tiger Claw for that. Swordsage has Tiger Claw, Shadow Hand and Desert Wind for mobility.
Your stat distribution also fits better. Swordsages are Wis-based.

They also have one of the easiest ways in the game to get Dex to damage, through the Shadow Blade feat. Not earth-shattering, but with a Dex mod of +8 and all those limbs, I'd say it's very nice.

Necropolitant on crystalkeep is LA: 0. Also see if you can get that fey initiative mystra feat or what ever its called to get int instead of con to level. You're melee. You need hitpoints.

Faerie Mysteries Initiate. Initiate of Mystra is another feat that also happens to be overpowered.

FMI working on undead is debatable, though. If your Con modifier is not added to your HP rolls it is rather hard to replace it with Int. =/

[Keld Denar]

Fairy Mysteries Initiate? Requires elf. Improved Toughness would work though, for 1 extra HP per HD.

I'd look into getting the maneuver Mind Over Body at some point. Granted, you are immune to MOST things that requires a fort save, but you need something when a wayward disintegrate comes flying your way.

I'd go Necropolitan if you HAVE to be undead.

You have a fair number of strikes. You'll want to make full attacks to take advantage of your multiple limbs. Dancing Mongoose isn't until IL7, but would be one you want to pick up ASAP. Maybe swap a couple strikes for Wall of Blades or similar counters or a couple boosts. Don't forget that you get a half an IL for each of your Racial HD, so at WB1 you'll have an IL of 2, and at WB 4 you'll have an IL of 5.

[Heliomance]

Ghoul has that feral feel to it though. Also, five attacks a round with DC 21 paralysis on all of them is quite nice :D

[Boci]

FMI working on undead is debatable, though. If your Con modifier is not added to your HP rolls it is rather hard to replace it with Int. =/

Never being particularly good at maths I have never seen a difference between - and 0, so it works in my eyes, but as Keld Denar pointed out it requires elf, making an elf / necropolitant quite an attractive race for this campeign. but not what the OP wants.

Ghoul has that feral feel to it though. Also, five attacks a round with DC 21 paralysis on all of them is quite nice :D

If you live long enough to use them. You've got no con bonus HP and quite a significant LA. For a frontline fighter, that will be a problem unless the DM pulls his punches.

[Heliomance]

Regarding Swordsage over Warblade - how much does the 3/4 BAB and the inferior maneuver recovery mechanic hurt?

[Boci]

Regarding Swordsage over Warblade - how much does the 3/4 BAB

If you just use standard action strikes not much. If you full attack, yes. But you want to be mobil, so you'be standard action attacking right?

and the inferior maneuver recovery mechanic hurt?

A bit. Depends of course on how long fights typically last. Adaptive style and belt of battle will allow you to reshuffle manouvers 1 per day as a swift action.

[Heliomance]

If you just use standard action strikes not much. If you full attack, yes. But you want to be mobil, so you'be standard action attacking right?

Hmm, good point. Though that does somewhat negate the point of large numbers of natural attacks.

Wonder if I can persuade the DM to up the level enough that I could get Pouncing Charge.

[Darrin]

If you have to be undead... isn't there a neat little combo with Shadow Sun Ninja?

[Boci]

Hmm, good point. Though that does somewhat negate the point of large numbers of natural attacks.

Wonder if I can persuade the DM to up the level enough that I could get Pouncing Charge.

You could dip into tiget totem barbarian and do it without requiring a manouver (and you could do it at will). Then you could also take tiger blooded if you wanted.

If you have to be undead... isn't there a neat little combo with Shadow Sun Ninja?

Infinate healing and no consequences for using the capstone ability to bestow negative levels. The second one is okay, but the first can be replicated by a dreadnecromancer in the party. Will a lesser vigour wand work on undead?

[Heliomance]

Hmm, I might have to go Swordsage anyway - I REALLY want the Leaping Dragon Stance, and I have a feeling that I broke the rules to get it as a Warblade at this level.

[Keld Denar]

You can do both. Go like, Swordsage4/Warblade1/Swordsage2/Warblade1. This gives you even more maneuvers known, a the cost of 1 IL. Its a pretty common build technique when combining 2 classes when 1 of them is a ToB class. Works the same when both are ToB classes.

[Runestar]

If you want to combine martial adept classes, I would recommend going warblade first, instead of swordsage. Given that swordsage grants so many maneuvers known, and that the lower lvs one tend to suck, you may be better picking it later on, so you can access higher lv maneuvers. This may end up being more beneficial than extra skill points.

Also, if your dex is higher than your str, this combination lets you take weapon finesse at 1st lv, rather than 3rd.

And I agree with swordsage utilizing desert wind and tiger claw for mobility.

[Darrin]

Hmm, I might have to go Swordsage anyway - I REALLY want the Leaping Dragon Stance, and I have a feeling that I broke the rules to get it as a Warblade at this level.

There's a feat in PHBII, Leap of the Heavens, that does almost the same thing as Leaping Dragon Stance.

[Eldariel]

You could dip into tiget totem barbarian and do it without requiring a manouver (and you could do it at will). Then you could also take tiger blooded if you wanted.

This combines excellently with many maneuvers that use the Charge-mechanic, such as White Raven-charges and Bounding Assault. It's a keypart of my present Gestalt Warrior Arena character. Being able to double move > charge is just useful beyond words. Especially without penalties, and being able to Tumble while moving and not requiring LoS and so on.

[Heliomance]

Leap Of The Heavens doesn't give a +10 though.

Okay, I've changed it into a Swordsage.

Kukrak
Male Thri-Kreen Gravetouched Ghoul Swordsage, Level 2/6 (ECL 12), Init +10, HP 53/53, Speed 40ft/x4
AC 26, Touch 21, Flat-footed 18, Fort +2, Ref +17, Will +12, Base Attack Bonus 6
Unarmed Strike +15/+10 (1d8+8, 20/x2)
Claw +13/+13/+13/+13 (1d6+4, 20/x2)
Bite +12 (1d6+4, 20/x2)
(+8 Dex, +5 Natural, +3 Misc)
Abilities Str 19, Dex 26, Con -, Int 10, Wis 19, Cha 13
Condition None

Maneuver Progression:
SS1: Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Clinging Shadow Strike, Counter Charge, Mighty Throw, Wind Stride. Blood In The Water.

SS2: Claw At The Moon. Child Of Shadow.

SS3: Flashing Sun.

SS4: Shadow Jaunt.

SS5: Soaring Raptor Strike. Leaping Dragon Stance.

SS6: Death From Above. Swapped Wolf Fang Strike for Searing Charge.

SS7: Comet Throw

SS8: Pouncing Charge. Swapped Mighty Throw for Shadow Stride.

SS9: Leaping Flame. Step Of The Dancing Moth.

SS10: Dancing Mongoose. Swapped Clinging Shadow Strike for Ballista Throw.

[Oslecamo]

Looks nice actualy, for something with so much LA.

Your attack bonus is somewhat low, but your character is naked, so geting an amulet of natural attacks and some dexterity item should bring it up to nice values. Your HP is kinda low, but you have undead immunities and with some defensive items your AC will be pretty high. Add in the defensive maneuvers and you should more than hold your own in battle by dodging like mad.

So pretty good job overall. Just beware of disintregate.

[Boci]

Leap Of The Heavens doesn't give a +10 though.

Neither does leaping dragon. It allows yout to treat your movement as being +10, which I think is a +6 bonus on jump checks.

[Heliomance]

While you are in this stance, you gain a +10-foot enhancement bonus on Jump checks. In addition, any jumps you make in this stance are considered running jumps.

As written, that seems to mean you get to jump 10 feet further than you normally would. Which is odd, I admit. The wording is very bad.

Incidentally, we're being given 5 LA for free. I only have 3 at the moment, so I've got 2 more I can play with. Should I take Evolved Undead a couple of times, or is there something else fun I can do?

[Cyclocone]

Incidentally, we're being given 5 LA for free. I only have 3 at the moment, so I've got 2 more I can play with. Should I take Evolved Undead a couple of times, or is there something else fun I can do?

Well, Fast Healing would be quite nice when you're so HP starved.

Alternatively, Half-Fey is LA +2 and has a lot going for it, including +2 DEX, charm person at-will, DR 5/cold iron and a fly-speed equal to twice its land movement.
As an undead, you obviously won't care about the CON penalty, and the butterfly wings aren't as disconcerting on an insect-man as on -say- an illithid elder brain.

[Person_Man]

Necropolitant on crystalkeep is LA: 0.

Note that you lose permanently lose a class level when you take Necropolitan. So really it's closer to LA +1 then LA 0.

Regarding Swordsage over Warblade - how much does the 3/4 BAB and the inferior maneuver recovery mechanic hurt?

Not much. Swordsage doesn't need (or want) Power Attack. So basically you're just giving up a few points to your To-Hit and maybe one attack (depending on you ECL).

Wonder if I can persuade the DM to up the level enough that I could get Pouncing Charge.

Ways to Get Pounce or Free Movement. Note that dipping into Barbarian is not a particularly great idea for high level builds because tehy can just buy a Psicrown of the Evader or a Wand of Lion's Charge. Nor is it that necessary for ToB builds, which have access to several different pounce/movement maneuvers and stances, and a metric ton of Standard Action manuevers.

If you have to be undead... isn't there a neat little combo with Shadow Sun Ninja?

Blinky the Ninja

Spoiler

Show

Chaotic Good Ghost Whisper Gnome Warlock 3/Swordsage 2/Shadow Sun Ninja 4

Start with the Ghost template class (variable LA) for a variety of useful abilities and the undead type. When used correctly its ridiculously powerful, and if you go to LA +3 for Rejuvenation then under the right circumstances you can never be permanently destroyed. Alternatively, you can pick up Necropolitan from Libris Mortis (+1ish LA), which also makes you undead, but has fewer special abilities.

You now have a host of immunities, and are now healed by Negative energy. Neither template has any effect on your alignment, and both templates have fluff that specifically support the balance/struggle between good and evil, light and darkness, which fits perfectly with the Setting Sun Ninja fluff.

Shadow Sun Ninja (Tome of Battle) gives you the Touch of the Shadow Sun ability. As a Standard action, you can deal Negative Energy damage (to heal yourself or damage a non-undead enemy) and the round afterward, you can deal the same amount of Positive Energy (to heal the living or damage undead) as a Standard action. Congratulations, because you now have infinite healing for your entire party.

Take the Blend into Shadows feat (Drow of the Underdark). It allows Warlocks to Hide in Plain Site as a Swift Action every round as long as you're within an area of magical darkness. Invest heavily in Hide and boost it via magic items. Remember, rolling a natural 20 doesn't automatically pass a Skill check. So unless an enemy has a ridiculously high Spot, you can't be targeted by anything except for area of effect attacks.

Cast your Darkness invocation individually on multiple pieces of ammunition (shuriken, arrows, bolts, whatever). Darkness lasts for 10 minutes per level, and you can cast Invocations unlimited times per day, so duration isn't an issue. Keep one in your hand at all times. The rest are a free action to draw when you attack with them. Alternatively, you can take Quickdraw and just cast Darkness on any assortment of hand held items that you can easily draw and drop as you move around the battlefield. Basically, you just want backups spread throughout the battlefield in case someone casts Dispel Magic on you.

Buy a Wand of Ebon Eyes (Spell Compendium), and cast it on all of your friends. Now your friends don't have to worry about the 20% miss chance from your magical Darkness. Or they can take At Home in the Deep, Pierce Magical Concealment, or find some other feat, spell, or item. Or you can just screw your friends - you don't need them with this build, and if you invest in the Devil's Sight invocation you're not effected by the miss chance from magical Darkness.

Take the Darkstalker feat (Lords of Madness) which allows you to Hide from things with Scent, Tremorsense, See Invisibility, and similar abilities. You can now Hide in Plain Site against literally everything.

Shadow Sun Ninja also gives you the Light within Darkness special ability. After you successfully Hide and make a melee attack, all opponents (not everyone, just opponents) within 60 feet who failed to detect you must make a Fort Save or be Blinded for one round.

Take Frightful Presence (Draconomicon). When you attack, all opponents within 30 feet who have fewer hit dice then you must Save or be Shaken. Remember that effects from the same ability do not stack, so if an enemy fails his Save vs your Frightful Presence more then once, it just extends the duration. So you'll need to invest in other Fear effects to make it work well.

So, buy armor with the Fearsome armor enhancement from Drow of the Underdark. It allows you to use Intimidate to Demoralize an enemy as a Move action (normally it's a Standard action). Buy the Crystal Mask of Dread from the Magic Item Compendium (buffs Intimidate). Take the Beguiling Influence Invocation (buffs Intimidate). Take Imperious Command from Drow of the Underdark - now whenever you successfully use Intimidate to Demoralize a foe, it Cowers for 1 round and Shaken the next. And Fear effects from different sources stack, so if they failed their Save vs Frightful Presence, they're Frightened. Use the Never Outnumbered Skill Trick from Complete Scoundrel so that you can Intimidate everyone within 10 feet.

Use Standard Action ToB maneuvers or Ghost abilities to make melee attacks.


The full combo put together:

Round 1: Attack with your ranged weapon(s), spreading Darkness throughout the battlefield. Enemies within range of you must make a Will Save vs. Fear. Then Hide in Plain Site as a Swift Action. Move if you feel paranoid about being targeted by area of effect attacks. Use Intimidate to Demoralize your opponents before you make your Hide check if you don't.

Round 2: Make melee attack (you are now no longer hidden). Enemies within range must make a Will Save vs. Fear. Enemies who failed their Spot check must Save or be Blinded for 1 round. Hide in Plain Site as a Swift Action. Move if you feel paranoid about being targeted by area of effect attacks. Use Intimidate to Demoralize your opponents before you make your Hide check if you don't.

Repeat Round 2 until all enemies are dead.

The end result - Blind, Frightened, and/or Cowering enemies. The attack power of a few ToB maneuvers. The versatility of Use Magic Device. The invulnerability of not being targeted, the undead type, etherealness, Rejuvenation, infinite healing, immunity to tons of things, and possibly Evasion (buy a ring) and high AC (if your Wis and Dex are strong, but this isn't important). And you have excellent social Skills for roleplaying fun. I also suggest trying to work in 3-4 levels of Paladin of Freedom for immunity to compulsion effects and Divine Grace, but it's strictly optional.

I think Blinky solves a lot of your problems. He's undead, very mobile, has the ability to Take 10 on UMD checks (giving you easy access to Pounce, Touch Attacks, any many other things), and he's essentially immortal.

[Boci]

Note that you lose permanently lose a class level when you take Necropolitan. So really it's closer to LA +1 then LA 0.

Not really. By core rules you are going to catch up with the over parties members soon enough. With LA: +1 it requires that you use LA buyoff rules. Also, you might be able to persuade your DM that you already went through the ritual and have since gained a level to be equal with the party members.

Nor is it that necessary for ToB builds, which have access to several different pounce/movement maneuvers and stances,

Two I can think of: pouncing charge and quicksilver motion. Theres also wolf fang strike and flashing sun, but those are not full attacks.

and a metric ton of Standard Action manuevers.

Not much use if you want to full attack.

[Heliomance]

Not much. Swordsage doesn't need (or want) Power Attack. So basically you're just giving up a few points to your To-Hit and maybe one attack (depending on you ECL).

Pounce+Leap Attack sounds like hilarious fun though, what with my two unarmed strikes and five natural attacks.

[Boci]

Pounce+Leap Attack sounds like hilarious fun though, what with my two unarmed strikes and five natural attacks.

Shock trooper would be better, but it also requires improved bullrush.

[Heliomance]

Okay, unless you guys have any criticisms, this is probably the final build. Still need to get items though; standard WBL for level 12, any advice would be welcome.

Kukrak
Male Thri-Kreen Evolved Gravetouched Ghoul Swordsage, Level 2/10 (ECL 12), Init +11, HP 81/81, Speed 40ft/x4
AC 28, Touch 21, Flat-footed 20, Fort +2, Ref +17, Will +12, Base Attack Bonus 9
Unarmed Strike +18/+13 (1d8+8, 20/x2)
Claw +18/+18/+18/+18 (1d6+4, 20/x2)
Bite +17 (1d6+4, 20/x2)
(+8 Dex, +7 Natural, +3 Misc)
Abilities Str 23, Dex 26, Con -, Int 10, Wis 19, Cha 17
Condition None

Maneuver Progression:
SS1: Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Clinging Shadow Strike, Counter Charge, Mighty Throw, Wind Stride. Blood In The Water.

SS2: Claw At The Moon. Child Of Shadow.

SS3: Flashing Sun.

SS4: Shadow Jaunt.

SS5: Soaring Raptor Strike. Leaping Dragon Stance.

SS6: Death From Above. Swapped Wolf Fang Strike for Searing Charge.

SS7: Comet Throw

SS8: Pouncing Charge. Swapped Mighty Throw for Shadow Stride.

SS9: Leaping Flame. Step Of The Dancing Moth.

SS10: Dancing Mongoose. Swapped Clinging Shadow Strike for Ballista Throw.

[Eldariel]

Ways to Get Pounce or Free Movement. Note that dipping into Barbarian is not a particularly great idea for high level builds because tehy can just buy a Psicrown of the Evader or a Wand of Lion's Charge. Nor is it that necessary for ToB builds, which have access to several different pounce/movement maneuvers and stances, and a metric ton of Standard Action manuevers.

This is not true; you need natural Pounce for several of the powerful attack combinations and Wand/Psicrown wastes your swift action. You cannot use the White Raven Charges, or Bounding Assault, or Devoted Spirit Charges without actual Pounce, and as a ToB-character, you have huge returns from your swift actions, everything from your counters to boosts to movement, and so on. Many key items are Swift Action-activation too. Really, the Barbarian-level is one of the very few reasons to get a satisfactory form of Pounce for a ToB-character.

[deuxhero]

This help?