So, I have one of THOSE partys

[The_Lonely_d12]

'Lo all, been quite a while since I've been here. Anyways, I have a problem, and this might take some context, I'll put it under a spoiler to keep from too many walls-o-text.

Spoiler

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This is a group I've played with together in one setting before, Exalted. Now, this game was beginning to go nowhere fast, and the decision was made to have a different game running, so that there would be some downtime for that games GM (who is one of the players in my DnD group). First off, we decided early on to try co-GM'ing a game, allowing myself and another to play to our strengths. Now, we've basically given these players everything they could want to encourage them to go do something. Ridiculous stat bonuses (story related, I won't get into that here), double starting gold, a singular item what is basically a minor artifact, tailored to their character, and basically to have free true resurrections: we've said if they die, they can either make a new character at the same level, or have the same one, with the same amount of gold value in items as they had already. We did this basically to try and at least start out the game so they wouldn't feel so grossly underpowered, coming from the exalted system. Hell, we've even allowed for gestalt characters just for kicks, because it honestly gives me an excuse to raise my expectations of what they can do and plan accordingly.

You know how several of you have probably had one of those troublemaker players in a group, or had to GM for a group with one? When I say those players, i'm mostly referring to the ones who may do any of the following:
Twink to the point of absurdity rather than trying to make a character
Make a point to never actually do anything the character actually should/would
Become needlessly paranoid over everything
Complain about how they aren't powered up enough (absolutely ridiculous)
Complain when they don't have perfect knowledge of everything
Spend easily 3 minutes trying to plan the best min/max moves in combat nearly every round instead of just doing something
Other sundry difficulties

Right now, that is the entire party I Co-GM for. Think about that. There is not a single 'normal' player there.
I mean, right now the most interesting character is the one who is mostly just watching, and waiting for the moment when he can screw over the GM's by screwing up the party somehow-and he's the cleric. Honestly, I'm starting to be at wit's end here. These guys don't care about what's going on, what things look like, are singularly incapable of working together in any aspect, and We (myself and my co-gm) are honestly starting to get tired of trying to push them into doing something. We've given them a big enough setting that they could probably go and do anything if someone would just step up and try, and they don't.
I'm not sure the gimmies are causing the problems here (and if they were, they're not entirely constant, depending on what the players do), and honestly I could use any suggestions you all collectively have.

[Choco]

Sounds like they can only enjoy Exalted or epic-level D&D.

Either give them that, or leave the group. Seriously, if you are not having fun and EVERY member of the group is a "problem" player, then your play style is clearly completely different than theirs and you can either give them what they want and go along with it or find a group that fits you better.

[Glyde]

If the party doesn't feel motivated, it *could* be because they already have too much, or it just isn't in their character (The players' that is) to have the initiative. They could be the kind of group that you need to railroad, and they like it just fine. One of my group's is like that, whereas the other is not.

[clockworkmonk]

The first question should be, are you enjoying yourself?
If not, do you think you could with this group?
if no, then why are you doing it?

most of the things have some small fixes. For example, give players at most 30 seconds to determine their actions for the round. If they have nothing, they twiddle their thumbs.

Discuss characters being made, and how they will interact with the group, with the entire group.

You could also address your concerns with the group, If they are your friends, it could go easier.

[Saph]

Okay, I'm going to have to break one of my normal rules here. Normally, whenever someone posts a request for advice, I try to come up with something constructive. But you've managed to come up with such an utterly hopeless situation that I can't see any possible solution.

I mean, let's go through the checklist here. Stupidly overpowered stuff with no game balance, check. In-game problems, check. Out-of-game problems, check. Hostile attitude towards the GMs, check. Oh, and two GMs, just to multiply the problems.

Short version: you're hosed. The campaign is going to go down in flames one way or another, the best you can hope for is to pick the crash site. I don't think there's any chance of fixing it. Sorry.

[Jayabalard]

Basically I suggest dropping that game entirely; it's going to just reinforce their already unreasonable expectations, and it doesn't sound like it's going anywhere.

[dsmiles]

Basically I suggest dropping that game entirely; it's going to just reinforce their already unreasonable expectations, and it doesn't sound like it's going anywhere.

Seconded.

But if this isn't an option, start a new campaign. A low-magic, WBL by the book, PHB classes/races/feats only, level 1 campaign. If they continue to complain and munchkin their characters, they are not fit for DnD. They should stick to Exalted

[The_Lonely_d12]

I'll try to reply to whoever i've seen thus far

@Choco I don't think epic would solve the problems, and I've already seen that exalted had it's own quirks with this party.

@Glyde Both of us try to keep from railroading, but it's honestly the next step. Previous experience with them has taught me that railroading will lead to them playing a videogame rather than an rpg-or playing without thought

@Clockworkmonk I've enjoyed trying to make up balanced situations they can basically test their strengths against, but so far I've had to dumb things down on the fly because they haven't seemed to figure out the differences between Exalted and DnD yet...and most of them have played DnD before and were competent players. I do think that if i can get them to start working together, it'll become more enjoyable for everyone, myself included.

@Saph Actually, there are specific balances for each character and their items. Bad stuff can and will happen depending on their actions. I didn't really elucidate every little thing that everyone has and its drawbacks mostly because i didn't think everyone would really care, and it could take a while if that was the case. Also, the co-GM thing honestly is working out really well in this instance, all problems aside. It's strange to think of, but that is the #1 good thing going for this party.

@Jayabalard My point in asking for help on here was honestly to see if anyone had any suggestions i hadn't thought of. The premise this world is built on and the potential so far is actually exciting to me, enough that I don't really want to walk away from it so quickly.

[Saph]

@Saph Actually, there are specific balances for each character and their items. Bad stuff can and will happen depending on their actions. I didn't really elucidate every little thing that everyone has and its drawbacks mostly because i didn't think everyone would really care, and it could take a while if that was the case. Also, the co-GM thing honestly is working out really well in this instance, all problems aside. It's strange to think of, but that is the #1 good thing going for this party.

Well, you were asking for advice, and my advice is to give up. It sounds, frankly, hopeless.

The balance and the two DMs are side issues. It's the fact that the players are complaining and actively trying to screw over the campaign that's the death knell - those are just about the worst signs you can get. I'd suggest ending the campaign in whatever way is most entertaining and starting over, possibly tweaking the composition of the group while you're at it.

But I would advise against trying to fix things. Once a campaign's deteriorated past a certain point, fixing it just doesn't work anymore.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I'm not sure the gimmies are causing the problems here (and if they were, they're not entirely constant, depending on what the players do), and honestly I could use any suggestions you all collectively have.

Destroy them.

[arguskos]

Destroy them.

Via a crushing? Perhaps of the mind?

[Optimystik]

Destroy them.

No. Bad Pharoah. No more Mind Crushing.

EDIT: You can crush the ninjas, however...

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Just one mind crush, it'll barely hurt them!

[arguskos]

No. Bad Pharoah. No more Mind Crushing.

EDIT: You can crush the ninjas, however...

A-ha! Can't stop the Mind Crush! /apollo440

Anyways, I'm gonna chime in on the side of "yeah, this campaign sounds like it's a train wreck." And further add that it really does suck when games go down the tubes like this. Get out now, play something more constructive to their playstyles, like Exalted or Scion: God, something crazy high-powered.

[Dr Bwaa]

The balance and the two DMs are side issues. It's the fact that the players are complaining and actively trying to screw over the campaign that's the death knell - those are just about the worst signs you can get. I'd suggest ending the campaign in whatever way is most entertaining and starting over, possibly tweaking the composition of the group while you're at it.

Just give them a Deck of Many Things. That ought to do the trick as far as finishing the campaign in an entertaining manner goes. Or give them a new dungeon (don't tell them what it is), send them in, and watch the fun as they play in the ToH.

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If the Gem doesn't get them, Blasphemy probably will

[Kylarra]

I agree with Saph and the others, it sounds like it's really time to end this campaign and then have a nice long talk about what your group wants from a game before restarting.

[Tyndmyr]

Now, Im going to play Devil's Advocate here. Yknow why? Because even if these arguments are not strictly true, your players appear to be unified against you, and that's not generally a good sign. Regardless, the following is not personal.

First off, Id say that the power adjustment upward was probably too much...that's kinda ludicrous, plus it leads to complications.

You know how several of you have probably had one of those troublemaker players in a group, or had to GM for a group with one? When I say those players, i'm mostly referring to the ones who may do any of the following:
Twink to the point of absurdity rather than trying to make a character

Twinking and character building are not exclusive. Stormwind fallacy.

Make a point to never actually do anything the character actually should/would

What you think they should, or what they think they should? We need examples to determine how crazy this really is.

Become needlessly paranoid over everything

A certain level of paranoia is normal among those who spend their lives in deadly combat. This doesn't surprise me at all.

Complain about how they aren't powered up enough (absolutely ridiculous)

Players like power, and generally want more. Doesn't mean they need it all right now, of course. To get any more specific, I need details.

Complain when they don't have perfect knowledge of everything

This sounds like it might be a communication problem. I used identify last week on a magic item, and was told it was a colorful "thingie". You bet I complained. It was information I should have. Turns out it was boots of speed.

Normally, a character who is unhappy about a lack of knowledge should be able to go get that knowledge.

Spend easily 3 minutes trying to plan the best min/max moves in combat nearly every round instead of just doing something

You gave brand new players to the game ridiculously overpowered gestalt characters. If this doesn't lead to slowdowns, I don't know does.

Other sundry difficulties

Can't really judge without further info.

Right now, that is the entire party I Co-GM for. Think about that. There is not a single 'normal' player there.

This is what worries me most.

I mean, right now the most interesting character is the one who is mostly just watching, and waiting for the moment when he can screw over the GM's by screwing up the party somehow-and he's the cleric.

What sort of screwing up the party are we talking about? Examples?

Honestly, I'm starting to be at wit's end here. These guys don't care about what's going on, what things look like, are singularly incapable of working together in any aspect, and We (myself and my co-gm) are honestly starting to get tired of trying to push them into doing something. We've given them a big enough setting that they could probably go and do anything if someone would just step up and try, and they don't.
I'm not sure the gimmies are causing the problems here (and if they were, they're not entirely constant, depending on what the players do), and honestly I could use any suggestions you all collectively have.

Most true powergamers will, after optimizing the heck out of their chars, promptly seek out xp and loot. The gimmies are not the primary source of your problem.

Examples are going to be the best way of finding out what is.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Now, Im going to play Devil's Advocate here. Yknow why? Because even if these arguments are not strictly true, your players appear to be unified against you, and that's not generally a good sign.

But it is a good sign. A good sign that they must be destroyed!

[Sipex]

My opinion, take away the story, they don't care about the story. Give them something small in terms of story (ie: save the princess) and a big complicated, challenging dungeon between them and 'winning'.

[Dimers]

My suggestion certainly won't save THIS campaign, but might make D&D more possible for this group -- have a generating-new-characters-together session, with the goal of forming a cohesive group that wants to do a particular thing. And then prepare adventures around whatever that thing is that the group wants to do.

[Coidzor]

Don't try to make DnD be Exalted.

Exalted is Exalted

DnD is DnD.

It should be different, that's why you're bothering to play it instead.

[Tackyhillbillu]

Yeah, it sounds like the mix up is at least partially your fault, no offense. I'm going to join my voice in suggesting that you scrap the campaign and either start a new one, or switch systems.

If you want to keep playing D&D, you are going to have to let them play D&D.

I wouldn't suggest going straight SRD. Encourage them to take classes that are more standard out of the box things though. Anything from TOB is going to be fun, and pretty simple to figure out.

At the end of the day, it seems like the group has just extended their expectations of Exalted over to D&D, where they don't work. Until you fix that, nothing will change.

[DabblerWizard]

I second Tyndmyr's suggestion. It seems to me, that the playground will only be able to give sound advice if we know more about the specific problems you're facing.

It appears that you're up against some counter-productive, frustrating, behavior on the part of your players. I would assume you and your players have disparate expectations about what it means to play a d&d game.

However, it's hard to give better thoughts on that without more details.