I made a whoopsie

[Rahva]

So a couple of sessions ago I ran an adventure where I wanted an enemy assassin (job description, not the class) to stalk the PCs for a bit. Instead of just having him say "I've been following you since you left the tavern" I just rolled hide/spot a few times along the way.

However, I didn't want him to get discovered early so I gave him a ring with +10 to hide. There were still PCs in the party that could have spotted him, had they rolled high enough, but the chance was a lot lower.
What I didn't take into account was that the party would loot his body after they eventually killed him (how could I forget) and now the rogue has a ring of +10 hide, bringing her hide to +24 or so.
This means she can easily out-hide anything even remotely near the party's CL.

This isn't TOO bad, they can't skip encounters since the rest of the party is rubbish at sneaking, but if there's a way to simply sneak into a place, get the McGuffin and get out, the rogue just goes in alone, past all the guards and traps, gets what they need and gets out.
My solution so far is to simply challenge them in other ways that cannot be solved through stealth, or where it would just be a bad idea. I'd feel really mean if I simply took the ring away especially since it's been a while since she got it.

However, she's stealing a lot of the party's thunder since she's also the main spokeshalfling for the party (the rest is a bunch of unsociable, unshaven idiots IC). I've talked to her and she says she's just RPing what her character would do (true) but that she'll tone it down (false, though I think she's trying).
What do I do? I've recently been tempted to give the rest of the party some items of that calibre so they'll match up, but I'm afraid it'll just unbalance things more.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Blindsense.

[IonDragon]

Also, Hide doesn't get you past most traps. Being a Rogue does, but it doesn't make disarming the trap silent. Then there's Listen. A high hide doesn't make you silent either. You only need to fail Hide OR Move Silently for the baddies to be aware of you.

[nyjastul69]

There is nothing wrong with allowing an NPC to not ever be able to seen, heard, smelled etc. without having appropriate skills or gear. At that point it's basically just a plot device.
With what you've said there absolutely no reason why you can't give the other characters items to compensate them for the Rogue being over the relative wealth of the others. It's clunky, but can be easily made to work by a competent DM.

I think your first instinct was correct. They simply can't find the assassin by DM fiat until the proper time.

[Samb]

If for plot reasons you need her to be found you could just have your baddies find her and say that she did not make her spot check to see that they had line of sight on her while she was making her check. You have a DM screen for a reason.

[Emmerask]

One day soon she will trigger a trap and then be surrounded by party! appropriate enemies and wont stand much of a chance alone then its time to reroll a new char and perhaps to realize that soloadventuring is quite dangerous

[Shademan]

put the players in a envoirment that is more...aimed at the others.
Captain scruffbeard of the sheild-brigade will not talk to the puny halfling WOMAN! no oh no! He's only willing to chat with the fighter.
The orc barbarian refuse to let the others fight their chief in the duel of honour and brutal death, only the barbarian with his unwashed body and smelly hubris is orky enuff' for them.
etc etc etc, give em all a chance to shine!
(party beeing followed by the horde of undeads? the cleric hold them off long enuff for the others to escape! also for social stuff, the evil cleric leading the undeads is also undead and thus unbackstabable and will not talk to a halfling*)


(* halflingophobia)

[Foryn Gilnith]

You need cover or concealment to make a Hide check. A bit hard to get if the whole place is lighted. Also, opening doors tends to attract attention anyway.

[GolemsVoice]

A caster can cast a fantastic array of spells. A Fighter can hit hard and fast, etc... Many classes have their main application in combat, where tzhey can use their talents best.
A rogue isn't necessarily a primary fighter, and he doesn't have spells he can cast each round/at the fitting opportunity. His job is sneaking, disamring traps etc...
So, where's the problem with making him better at his main thing? As somebody who's main character is a Rogue, I know that when it comes to combat, others take the main role. With a moderate BAB, only your first attack has a very likely chance of hitting, so I enjoy it whenever I can be sneaky, find and disarm traps, and generally do what only I can do.

[Re'ozul]

Overall possibilities:

- If the ring has a crystal that houses the power: A critical melee breaks the crystal, along with the rogues hand. (in combination with any "sight" that does not need light), The ring is still worth a good amount due to the craftsmanship.

- The ring was a fire and forget construct created for the assassin. It will run out of juice after x weeks. (or gets slowly reduced to a more manageable amount)

- Something (a macguffin) uses some form of devour magic.

- The rogue finds herself to be less and less capable of teamwork, living only for the "mission" (what your players are supposed to do). Have her start making saving throws for actions that would help her comrades, increasing difficulties every in-game day or so. (This includes sharing loot, taking sidequests). If she doesn't take of the ring the effect worsens, perhaps making it necessary for her comrades to take the ring of her.

- There's a lot of other possibilities too.

[Radar]

Remembering about shortcomings of Hide skill (needing cover, being still vulnurable to Listen checks) is one thing.
I would rather avoid making the stealthy character useless in a given situation just so the other could contribute. It would be better to construct adventures in such a way, that sneaking in is still valuable, but doesn't solve the whole problem. A MacGuffin of the session can for example be a bit too big, to just sneak away with, or there might be a hostage to rescue (better yet more then one), so the party has to barge in anyway, but sneaky PC can still fully contribute by providing intel on the guards for example. In short, your initial solution seems fine to me. Let the stealthy adventurer use her powers, but it should not solve the whole problem. Some investigation scenarios are IMO quite good, since they are more player oriented then character oriented and differences in builds won't be important much.

[Riffington]

What level are they, anyway?
For a level 2 party, that's hella powerful. By level 8, it's just a very useful tool. If you're a level 2 party, you're probably going to want to take it away eventually (my goodness, something that powerful will surely attract those who desire it). If you're a level 7 party, wait it out and leveling will take care of it. Also, as said before, Listen.

[Rahva]

What level are they, anyway?

They're level 6 now, 5 when they got the ring.
The party features:
- this halfling rogue specialising in daggers and snarkiness
- a swashbuckler specialising in chaotic stupid and heading towards being a fearsome pirate
- a bard
- a warmage whose player forgets he has spells

As you can probably tell from the above they don't care for optimization and they enjoy RP and cleverness over combat, although they usually fail to come up with much in the cleverness department.

Question: does listen also work on characters that are standing still? I've always assumed it doesn't.

As for hiding requiring cover etc, the rogue is pretty much always hidden unless they're in town. If she's exploring with the party she'll let them open the doors so she can stay around the corner so the enemies don't spot her.
She's tried saying "I'm going to forget to tell you, but my character is always hiding unless I say different." She is under the impression that hiding makes you magically invisible though, like you don't need an actual place to hide, probably because of WoW.

[Deth Muncher]

Unless the Rogue has Hide In Plain Sight (y'know, that ability WotC used 12 times without stopping to realize each iteration did something different), introduce the halogen lightbulb wherever the MacGuffin is stored.

[Sinfire Titan]

Should have made the Assassin a Totemist. At least they can't loot the Soulmelds...

[Skaven]

Scent, and listen checks.

Also, consider irregular ground. Gravel and the like can easily lower move silently. Dust can leave footprints that lead guards, etc.

[IonDragon]

Question: does listen also work on characters that are standing still? I've always assumed it doesn't.

That's really up to you, although a compelling argument could be made for why it shouldn't. But if your rogue is holding still... she's with the party right? Otherwise how could she have gotten there?

[Eldan]

Also:

Arcane Sight/Detect magic should pick up the ring.
Blindsense and Blindsight.
Lifesense.
Scent.
Swampy ground: footprints.
Alarm spells.

There are many non-visual ways to detect someone, and a competent badguy should have some of them around.

Still, you shouldn't screw over all of the rogue's attempt at sneaking: he's good at it, so let him do it a few times. He takes the macguffin and begins to run out, someone sees that it's gone and they start sealing doors...
Then the party has to bust in and save him. That way, everyone still gets something to do.

[pasko77]

So a couple of sessions ago I ran an adventure where I wanted an enemy assassin (job description, not the class) to stalk the PCs for a bit. Instead of just having him say "I've been following you since you left the tavern" I just rolled hide/spot a few times along the way.

However, I didn't want him to get discovered early so I gave him a ring with +10 to hide. There were still PCs in the party that could have spotted him, had they rolled high enough, but the chance was a lot lower.
What I didn't take into account was that the party would loot his body after they eventually killed him (how could I forget) and now the rogue has a ring of +10 hide, bringing her hide to +24 or so.
This means she can easily out-hide anything even remotely near the party's CL.

This isn't TOO bad, they can't skip encounters since the rest of the party is rubbish at sneaking, but if there's a way to simply sneak into a place, get the McGuffin and get out, the rogue just goes in alone, past all the guards and traps, gets what they need and gets out.
My solution so far is to simply challenge them in other ways that cannot be solved through stealth, or where it would just be a bad idea. I'd feel really mean if I simply took the ring away especially since it's been a while since she got it.

However, she's stealing a lot of the party's thunder since she's also the main spokeshalfling for the party (the rest is a bunch of unsociable, unshaven idiots IC). I've talked to her and she says she's just RPing what her character would do (true) but that she'll tone it down (false, though I think she's trying).
What do I do? I've recently been tempted to give the rest of the party some items of that calibre so they'll match up, but I'm afraid it'll just unbalance things more.

Well, as others pointed out, Hide is no big deal.
I would further raise the question and ask u: What are you gonna do when your PCs will be able to reliably use invisibility, fly or, gods forbid, teleport?
Be prepared! :)

[Lycan 01]

Sneaking on ahead of the party, she enters a long hallway. Halfway down the hall, all the doors slam shut, and the torches go out. Everything becomes pitch black.

The Rogue has 1d4 rounds to produce a strong source of light before she is eaten by a Grue.


To make it more challenging (if a bit unfair) you can ask her to make rolls with tough DCs, like a unmodified DC 15 to light a torch since a chill wind is blowing and/or her hands are shaking with fear. You can easily make it doomy enough for the party to only find a blood smear and some gnawed bones when they enter the hallway later on themselves.


If you do actually go with this idea, be sure to give her some bonus XP or equipment or something for her next character to make up for the total DM screw-over.

[Dixieboy]

-snip-

You have been tainted by CoC, begone mad one!

[Rahva]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
-snip-
You have been tainted by CoC, begone mad one!

And Zork.
Man every time I say the word I have to play it again.

[Glass Mouse]

I do NOT recommend screwing over the player, killing her, punishing her or taking the ring away. She didn't do anything wrong in getting the ring, and seriously - who wouldn't love solving problems by doing what they're good at?

I vote for adventures that are non-solveable by sneaking. Fx a tournament. Maybe some players could fight, while the others discover cheating (maybe the whole thing is a set-up) and need to unravel.
How about talky stuff? Wouldn't that be the bard's time to shine? Especially if they like being "clever", a bard is invaluable as distraction.
I also like the idea of solo-sneaking going wrong, and the others having to help.
Another idea could be to have a sudden time limit. You're not sneaking very well when you all have to run faster than time can fly. "Okay, from we enter 'til the monster reappears, we've got less than two minutes. Everyone, RUN!"

Try demanding the rogue to tell HOW she's hiding. Give her bonuses or penalties, based on these descriptions (make sure she knows it goes both ways, so it doesn't feel like punishment). This requires you to provide texture (but if they're big on RP'ing, they probably won't mind). It even gives you the opportunity to occasionally place her in a setting where hiding is practically impossible. And to make her heart rate jump by descriping how the bad guy comes closer and closer to her hiding place.
An added bonus to this is that she may be inclined to hide a little less often.

Another, alternative thought...
If she's ALWAYS hiding, that may attract attention in its own right. If the party meets an NPC while the rogue is hiding, and she suddenly jumps out of the shadows to join the conversation, have the NPC become frightened and suspicious. It would force her to use her hiding a bit more carefully, so as to not alienate potentially useful NPCs.
This could easily become a pattern while being completely realistic (in some situations more than others, of course).
Really, people stepping out of thin air is something that attracts a lot of attention.

[taltamir]

1. Guard dogs (scent is unaffected by hiding).
2. Listen checks
3. Traps make noise when sprung. or might directly sound an alarm
4. Alarm spells
5. Is it really so bad that one of the weakest (combat wise) classes in the game gets to shine once in a blue moon by doing something out of combat? (nobody is playing a monk or a truenamer, right?)

note that 2 and 3 can be bypassed by the wizard casting silence on the rogue... but he can also cast invisibility sphere to give everyone perfect hiding.

Oh, and without "hide in plain sight" she is not even allowed to attempt a hide check in many situations (aka, high amount of light and no cover).

[Shardan]

Nah.. just let the rogue start relying on it and suddenly the ring fizzles out.. seems it wasn't a permanent item.. only temporary :O

What horrible situation will he be in when that happens..

(and how could you NOT anticipate the party looting the guy... this is D&D... people loot frogs and rats here)

[lsfreak]

Also, keep in mind that as their fame spreads, people will start to know things about them. Like that there is always one of them that hides in the shadows.

This means that, while people who haven't heard of them go about their business, that main enemies or people with some preparation will know more of what to do. Clerics or druids start casting daylight and friends, maybe even battlefield illumination (heroes of battle) to try and flush her out of the shadows, or there are 'reserves' in hiding meant to show themselves only once she does. If you allow her to sneak attack after combat has started, by staying in the shadows until someone is distracted and then attacking (it would make sense that this person is flat-footed against her attack, if not everyone else), then perhaps once they see who they are fighting they either keep active lookout to the shadows, retreat to a safer spot, or so on.

Don't forget that you have to have something to hide with! Someone can't sneak through an empty room and expect not to be seen. It doesn't make much sense that the macguffin is in a place it would be easy to sneak into - well lit, well-guarded. Some place sneaking just doesn't work. Also, instead of having the macguffin sitting on an altar in the middle of the dungeon where it's just asking to be stolen, it's a ring that the head guy always wears, or in the envelop he always keeps on his person, or nice and safe, stitched under the skin of the hydra.

This allows the rogue to do some things - like either lingering behind or going ahead of the party in order to get off a full sneak attack - without making it too easy for them to steal the spotlight too much.

EDIT: Do make sure to give them some opportunities to use their stealth, though, like sneaking in and altering an important document before it is delivered or slitting a guard's throat letting them pass the first of several checkpoints into an enemy camp unhindered.

[Evard]

old school, infravision (infrared vision)

[taltamir]

old school, infravision (infrared vision)

wet mud?
I don't see how infra vision helps against hide checks... scent and listen, yes... blindsense, yes... mind detection, yes... (btw, there are a bunch of spells that detect minds, low level too; hasn't been mentioned yet)

I guess you could say infra vision makes it as if dark areas are "well lit"... which means you are not allowed to hide without "hide in plain sight"... but that should already be taken care of via the "well lit rooms"

[Raging Gene Ray]

Have the McGuffin or the area around it have a built in feature where it casts Glitterdust as soon as it's picked up/stepped into. This will impose a -40 penalty to Hide checks that would leave even Epic level Shadowdancers vulnerable to the Spot checks of the guards.

You seem like a nice DM, so you don't want to kill the halfling too good. Just have a few guards put some arrows in her if she goes it alone (if she brings the rest of the party, she has a way to take care of the guards, but no way to hide her comrades).

[AFS]

I do NOT recommend screwing over the player, killing her, punishing her or taking the ring away. She didn't do anything wrong in getting the ring.

I do. I think you need to take the ring away ASAP.

who wouldn't love solving problems by doing what they're good at?

The other players cause now they feel like they are treated unfair and the ring bearer gets a special ring and they didn’t. Giving the other characters over powered equipment won’t solve anything either. Taking the ring away isn’t punishment, make it about role playing and not stat playing.

Creating other ways around the hide skill won’t solve anything either. Now you are making her hidden, stinky and loud? That just sounds like people are trying to weasel around the real issue – the ring.

Simple solution, hit the reset button and get everyone back on even playing field, take the ring back.

Overall possibilities:

- If the ring has a crystal that houses the power: A critical melee breaks the crystal, along with the rogues hand. (in combination with any "sight" that does not need light), The ring is still worth a good amount due to the craftsmanship.

- The ring was a fire and forget construct created for the assassin. It will run out of juice after x weeks. (or gets slowly reduced to a more manageable amount)

- Something (a macguffin) uses some form of devour magic.

- The rogue finds herself to be less and less capable of teamwork, living only for the "mission" (what your players are supposed to do). Have her start making saving throws for actions that would help her comrades, increasing difficulties every in-game day or so. (This includes sharing loot, taking sidequests). If she doesn't take of the ring the effect worsens, perhaps making it necessary for her comrades to take the ring of her.

- There's a lot of other possibilities too.