Why "historal accuracy" can die in a ditch

[taltamir]

the entire concept of fantasy is just that, fantasy. you could say most feudal societies wouldn't allow a woman to run around fighting and instead marry her off at age 10-12. Also women wear such frumpy clothes that you barely see their ankles, and everyone is butt ugly because they don't have showers or toothpaste.

But really, where is the fun in that?

Can you imagine anyone who would want to play a game that says: you can only play a male, homosexuals/bisexuals/educated women (they must be witches) are burned at the stake, premarital sex results in stoning, you are unwashed and ugly, all the "romancable" (you buy them from their father) "women" (age 10-12 and girls; else there were already married off) are unwashed, ungroomed, unshaven, wear puritanical clothes, and have rotten teeth.

ugh, that game will be horrible.
Am I missing any aspect of why medieval life sucked so hard?

[FishAreWet]

say... wouldn't it be fun to play as a hero in that setting? in a dumpy setting, be the one to bring the light? to be the one who makes everything better? to save the day?

[Foryn Gilnith]

It's a spectrum. Too much historical accuracy and you get this. Too little and you get some freakish acid-trip-spawn-thing-maybe-not-really. Controlled doses of historical accuracy can be useful to a game, the same way controlled doses of Botox can be useful to a human. After all, people clamor for it; so they must like it for some reason.

[Magnor Criol]

Unless you HAD money (inherited it), you really had no way of GETTING money (it was all taken by your feudal lord)?

No plumbing or electricity? While I love camping and can not miss those for weeks at a time on a camping trip...I can honestly say I don't think I'd really want to live, full time, without those modern amenities. Maybe I'm just soft.

Don't forget horrendous medical knowledge. You could die from a paper cut (gets infected, then practice like bloodletting makes things worse...). Or heaven forbid the common cold stop by for a visit.) No band-aids and no nice magical healing for real fantasy.

Still, most people understand that there's a line between realism and fantasy, and an enjoyable game experience lies somewhere in between the two. What happened to set you off like this?

[taltamir]

say... wouldn't it be fun to play as a hero in that setting? in a dumpy setting, be the one to bring the light? to be the one who makes everything better? to save the day?

actually that is a pretty neat idea... a good party that sets out to reform the land... give rights to women and minorities, open schools (for both genders), stop the stoning/burning of "witches", etc... neat idea.

It's a spectrum. Too much historical accuracy and you get this. Too little and you get some freakish acid-trip-spawn-thing-maybe-not-really. Controlled doses of historical accuracy can be useful to a game, the same way controlled doses of Botox can be useful to a human. After all, people clamor for it; so they must like it for some reason.

ugh... botox "cosmetic surgury" is as useful is smoking a cigarette. just because people chose to do it doesn't mean its a healthy or wise thing to do

[Foryn Gilnith]

Set him off? This isn't a very ranty post.

It was a reaction to a comment about Dragon Age. This post said that all the bisexuals in Dragon Age were fanwankery and historically inaccurate. Taltamir responded.

ugh... botox "cosmetic surgury" is as useful is smoking a cigarette. just because people chose to do it doesn't mean its a healthy or wise thing to do

I would have used chemotherapy as a better example, but I don't know specifically what chemicals are used.

[The Dark Fiddler]

There is one simple reason why historical accuracy can die in a ditch, but beware for its very mention may drive you insane:

Spoiler

Show

FATAL

Sure, it may have failed miserably at everything, including historical accuracy, but this is what happens when you try too hard.

[Green Bean]

actually that is a pretty neat idea... a good party that sets out to reform the land... give rights to women and minorities, open schools (for both genders), stop the stoning/burning of "witches", etc... neat idea.

And then they get laughed out of town, because all that bad stuff takes hundreds of years to wear off.

[Foryn Gilnith]

And that's why you create magic traps of Mindrape to enforce your utopia. Big Brother Tippy is watching you.

[taltamir]

There is one simple reason why historical accuracy can die in a ditch, but beware for its very mention may drive you insane:

Spoiler

Show

FATAL

Sure, it may have failed miserably at everything, including historical accuracy, but this is what happens when you try too hard.

I have *shudder* read the rulebook... it is not trying to be historically accurate at all, it uses the claim "historical accuracy" as a shield to try and defend a "game" that is nothing but a rape simulator.

And then they get laughed out of town, because all that bad stuff takes hundreds of years to wear off.

by commoners? HA! Finally a use for greater cleave :) it would be a blood bath.

And that's why you create magic traps of Mindrape to enforce your utopia. Big Brother Tippy is watching you.

heh, with high enough magic, sure... but you can always just kill anyone who objects too loudly

[Demented]

Taltamir the Magnificent, Inventor of Toothpaste!
That would make an excellent hero.


- Toothpaste isn't the only way to clean your teeth.
- Without braces, you could find the people with bad teeth and mock them for their breeding.
- Ugly people get sent to the forlorn hope.
- You eat your vegetables. You also eat the fruitcake. There are no exceptions.
- You still smell better than the guy who lives on modern fast food.
- You look better, too. (See #3)
- There is no 'detect sexuality' spell, and if you're doing an ancient Greek setting...


As to realism in general...


The dragon breathes fire.

You are a pile of ash.

No save.

[deuxhero]

This is why I don't like the obsession with "medieval" settings. Give me Victorian era anyday.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Soft sci-fi magitek settings for me. Though I'll take whatever comes my way (so a lot of the medieval settings)

[ericgrau]

1. This is a 110% a matter of personal/gaming group preference. Who cares what everyone else does?
2. The Dark Ages sucked... at certain times in certain parts of Europe. Other areas were quite civilized and you could easily adapt their ways of life for your setting (or not). Even in ancient times. It's not a matter of technology so much as a bad time and place in history.

[Terraoblivion]

Not to mention that this really has little resemblance to any observable historical reality, instead being gross hyperbole of traits from various points of European history over the last 1500 years. In short if anybody claim that anything like that is historical accuracy laugh at them. Hard. And then walk away and play what you actually find fun.

[Demented]

2. The Dark Ages sucked... at certain times in certain parts of Europe. Other areas were quite civilized and you could easily adapt their ways of life for your setting (or not). Even in ancient times. It's not a matter of technology so much as a bad time and place in history.

Someone could say the modern era sucks and point to the poor regions of Kazakhstan.

And for some reason, Opera's spellchecker thinks "Kazakh" is a word. A proper name, actually. (Uncapitalized, it's erroneous.) to google!

[RPGuru1331]

"And that's why you create magic traps of Mindrape to enforce your utopia. Big Brother Tippy is watching you."

You don't see any problem with enforcing rights through Mind Rape, do you?

[Tengu_temp]

1. Historical accuracy is inaccurate in most fantasy settings, because they're very different from how medieval times looked like.
2. What most people consider historical accuracy really isn't. They base it on myths about middle ages rather than how middle ages were in reality. I see such examples in this thread already.

[PhoenixRivers]

As to realism in general...


The dragon breathes fire.

You are a pile of ash.

No save.

I find it amusing that you adjudicate the effects of a:
Dragon.
Breathing Fire.

Under... Realism?

[Demented]

Exactly.

[Riffington]

ugh... botox "cosmetic surgury" is as useful is smoking a cigarette. just because people chose to do it doesn't mean its a healthy or wise thing to do

Botulinum toxin is used in a variety of therapeutic procedures to treat dysphonia, hyperhidrosis, and various spasmodic disorders. It is not solely a cosmetic procedure.

Medieval life was not as bad as described.

Medieval peasants could improve their wealth and station (and become a miller, merchant, baker, priest, or physician)

[taltamir]

the implication from the "people clamoring for botox" seemed to indicate cosmetic uses, not medicinal. Although it is nice to know that medicinal uses exist.

[Foryn Gilnith]

I meant clamor for historical accuracy. I don't think people clamor for Botox, even as cosmetics. Do they?

You don't see any problem with enforcing rights through Mind Rape, do you?

Of course I do. My character doesn't, though. :)

[Mikeavelli]

Historically, people could not snuff bat Guano and spit Fireballs. Nor could individuals single-handedly defeat an entire army, or remain successfully hidden right in front of your face. Historical accuracy went out the window once you accepted fantasy elements, and it shifted into a tolkien-esque "fantasy setting"

About the only requirement is that world be internally consistent.

Slightly off topic (on topic in the other post about dragon age)

Spoiler

Show

It's well established that Lyrium is impossibly dangerous and makes humans go into convulsions just from touching the raw stuff. Yet, when you're down in the Underdark, you can just walk up to raw veins of the stuff and nothing happens! WTF Internal consistency? I know I'm a [strikeout]Jedi, SPECTRE,[/strikeout] Grey Warden and thus super-special, but what about my buddies?

IT DOES NOT MAEK SENSE!

[taltamir]

Historically, people could not snuff bat Guano and spit Fireballs. Nor could individuals single-handedly defeat an entire army, or remain successfully hidden right in front of your face. Historical accuracy went out the window once you accepted fantasy elements, and it shifted into a tolkien-esque "fantasy setting"

About the only requirement is that world be internally consistent.

Slightly off topic (on topic in the other post about dragon age)

Spoiler

Show

It's well established that Lyrium is impossibly dangerous and makes humans go into convulsions just from touching the raw stuff. Yet, when you're down in the Underdark, you can just walk up to raw veins of the stuff and nothing happens! WTF Internal consistency? I know I'm a [strikeout]Jedi, SPECTRE,[/strikeout] Grey Warden and thus super-special, but what about my buddies?

IT DOES NOT MAEK SENSE!

not only that, but the blood of the darkspawn is supposed to mean death to anyone it touches the SKIN of... the whole purpose of the grey warden ceremony is to use magic to make you immune, so how do you walk around fighting darkspawn close and personal and getting covered by their gore without falling on the ground convulsing and dying before the ceremony? how do your friends do it without ever getting the ceremony? (like all the "sick" in the camp)

[Don Julio Anejo]

the entire concept of fantasy is just that, fantasy. you could say most feudal societies wouldn't allow a woman to run around fighting and instead marry her off at age 10-12. Also women wear such frumpy clothes that you barely see their ankles, and everyone is butt ugly because they don't have showers or toothpaste.

But really, where is the fun in that?

Can you imagine anyone who would want to play a game that says: you can only play a male, homosexuals/bisexuals/educated women (they must be witches) are burned at the stake, premarital sex results in stoning, you are unwashed and ugly, all the "romancable" (you buy them from their father) "women" (age 10-12 and girls; else there were already married off) are unwashed, ungroomed, unshaven, wear puritanical clothes, and have rotten teeth.

ugh, that game will be horrible.
Am I missing any aspect of why medieval life sucked so hard?

1. You don't see many women running around fighting in any setting, medieval or otherwise. Present times included. There's probably one woman in the armed forces for something like 70 men (85% of all statistics are made up by my point stands). It comes from the fact that most women, in fact, don't want to fight.

2. Myth. 13-14 - maybe, 12 - almost never. Also, there's girls having sex at 12 right now. How is that any different if you throw out the "arranged marriage" part (which by the way still exists in a lot of societies and even countries like Canada). And finally, we grow up sexually around 13-14. Heck, biologically it's much worse to have children like we do now in the developed countries (i.e. when we're 35 or something) then when we're 13.

3. Frumpy clothes? You do know that it's a religious and cultural thing, right? Also, the whole skimpiness thing we have now is more of an anomaly than frumpy hooded stuff from the middle ages. I mean seriously, who in their right mind would wear a miniskirt when it's -5 outside if the culture didn't tell them to do it?

4. What does the lack of showers have to do with being butt ugly? Also, what about now, in places where there isn't much water? Like Sahara or the Arabian Desert or Sub-Saharan Africa?

5. Toothbrushes existed as far back as ancient Egypt and they were quite common even in medieval Europe. Ancient Romans could do real dentures, albeit without good painkillers. And in many places in Europe they used baking soda to brush their teeth... And finally, do take a look at what people ate back then. Fruit. Vegetables. Grains. Meat if you're better off. I don't see any sugar or chocolate or strongly basic/acidic foods there. How exactly would someone even get cavities?

6. Do take a deeper look at history, at the time before hordes of barbarians burned down and looted what was left of the Roman Empire. Life in ancient Rome wasn't that much different from life in the western world right now as long as you compensate for differences in technological achievement.

7. Medical care wasn't half bad despite some questionable practices. The problem was that there weren't any doctors to go around, and certainly none outside the military or large towns. So you were usually treated by whatever random person you could find who knew nothing about medicine. I doubt you'd be much better off now if you went to your, for example, banker to get treatment. With the only difference being sanitation, which, well, came with technology. In 200 years we might regrow lost organs and look back at how barbaric late 20th century medicine used to be.

[Maximum Zersk]

About the only requirement is that world be internally consistent.[/spoiler]

Hey, Magic A is Magic A. People don't care for logic.

As for historical accuracy, wouldn't that only be needed for, you know, a reenactment or something similar? Fantasy - especially High Fantasy - is it's own world.

[Tinydwarfman]

As to realism in general...


The dragon breathes fire.

You are a pile of ash.

No save.

I don't like historical accuracy. I do like realism. Let us not say there are mutually exclusive, because you CAN have realistic fantasy of sci-fi. In a realistic fantasy game, if you are a normal human, you WILL die from dragon's breath (unless the dragon is like 2 years old). But who actually expects the hero to be a completely average human? Whether you avoid the dragon's fire due to your incredible reflexes, or conjure a magical shield that stops the fire, these things can be played out realistically (within the realm of what is allowed for that world). D&D however, is not the most realistic game. (you use your evasive skills to take no damage from the dragon's breath, and yet somehow not move at all?)

Personally, I do not like a historically accurate setting (if I am playing a medieval setting I want elves and magic and stuff like that), but having played low-point, low magic in GURPS, it was actually quite fun. Sure we couldn't take an arrow in the face and live, but that just gives you a sense of actual risk when involved in combat. If we were completely historically accurate however, you are right, it would not be fun.

In summary : Realism ≠ Historical Accuracy. Realism good, complete historical accuracy bad.

EDIT:

How is that any different if you throw out the "arranged marriage" part (which by the way still exists in a lot of societies and even countries like Canada).

I agree with most everything you said, but wtf are you talking about here? Canada has no more arranged marriages than the US, or any other western country.

[Don Julio Anejo]

Historically, people could not snuff bat Guano and spit Fireballs. Nor could individuals single-handedly defeat an entire army, or remain successfully hidden right in front of your face. Historical accuracy went out the window once you accepted fantasy elements, and it shifted into a tolkien-esque "fantasy setting"

Disagree. There's such a thing called "suspension of disbelief." That is, you choose to believe that certain things work the way they're described to in the setting. Like magic. There's also game mechanics - I'm guessing people don't take in-game descriptions word for word but instead for things they represent. Like how hit points are not a representation of how many times you can be stabbed until you die, but rather how long you can fight until a well-placed hit takes you out.

But there's things that clearly don't fall under this category. An average human shouldn't be able to swing a 40 pound sword like a toothpick just because there's magic in the setting. The two are simply in no way related. Magic isn't present in the real world, and as such works in whatever way the creator wants it to. The sword... is present, and as such should abide by the laws of physics and biology. It's like having apples fall up with no explanation given just because it's fantasy.

[GoC]

actually that is a pretty neat idea... a good party that sets out to reform the land... give rights to women and minorities, open schools (for both genders), stop the stoning/burning of "witches", etc... neat idea.

Even better if treated realistically so it causes social upheaval and all the chaos and despair that brings. I'd like to see you realistically opening a successful school (how on earth would you convince them of the use of such a thing anyway?).