[3.5] Bloodlines cheese?

[grautry]

I've never played with bloodlines before so I've had no reason to look them up so far.

However, I think I've heard that you can pull off some massive cheese using them.

So, I took a look in the SRD yesterday and I was... unimpressed.

Anyone care to educate? Is there some sort of trick that turns bloodlines into an overpowered nightmare or am I misremembering things?

[Draz74]

Mostly it's the clause that all Bloodlines "levels" count as a "level" for all your other classes (I believe the examples given are for Sorcerer and Monk).

Combine this with a lot of multiclassing of classes that care about their "level" a lot (e.g. a Warblade/Swordsage/Crusader who boosts all three Initiator Levels by taking Bloodline levels), and you have a problem.

Even worse is when it's used to "extend" classes that weren't meant to have more levels, like Hellfire Warlock.

[Alleine]

The key to the power of bloodlines lies right here in this line

Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected.

Emphasis mine. Using the right classes with bloodlines can net you some of the benefit of that class. A good example is Hellfire warlock. The 2d6 hellfire damage you gain each level pretty clearly level dependent so a level of hellfire and a bloodline level nets you 4d6 extra damage. Of course, to gain the most benefit you want many classes with level dependent abilities so they all get the boost. Very handy if you have lots of classes like that.

Edit: ninja'd. What I get for being so slow :P

[2xMachina]

O.o

Also doesn't seem to increase ECL if I read it right.

Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below).

[Runestar]

I have heard of them allowing a multiclassed martial adept to get 9th lv maneuvers by 10th lv. Can't recall how it was done though.

[Zincorium]

It increases effective character level.

Just not actual character level.

[Tokiko Mima]

There's also the Titan bloodlines ability to wield Oversized Weapon(Ex) as the titan special ability, which they probably meant to quantify but didn't. So yes, a strict reading results in the ability to wield a Gargantuan two-handed war hammer without any penalty, regardless of your size.

[2xMachina]

Take a tiny (or smaller) size creature with that bloodline for more fun.

You see a gargantuan warhammer swinging by itself.

[Tokiko Mima]

Just remember, the way reach is calculated is based on your size not the size of your weapon. So while your Gargantuan hammer does Gargantuan damage, it still only has the reach of any other weapon you wield; i.e. 5' for Small/Medium creatures. If you become tiny or smaller you have no reach, even if your weapon is immense.

[Kobold-Bard]

The key to the power of bloodlines lies right here in this line



Emphasis mine. Using the right classes with bloodlines can net you some of the benefit of that class. A good example is Hellfire warlock. The 2d6 hellfire damage you gain each level pretty clearly level dependent so a level of hellfire and a bloodline level nets you 4d6 extra damage. Of course, to gain the most benefit you want many classes with level dependent abilities so they all get the boost. Very handy if you have lots of classes like that.

Edit: ninja'd. What I get for being so slow :P

So basically they do the same thing as the Legacy Champion Prc?

Learning new things to make my DM cry are fun

[grautry]

Ahh, I think I see now.

Seems pretty nice for a Binder. So let's say if I took a Binder and a bunch of PrC's that increase EBL(let's say I had four total of those) then I'd effectively get +4 EBL for a level of a bloodline, right?

So that's the key? Find a class that has valuable class abilities, stack a couple of prestige classes that advance those, get a bloodline level and presto, you've got yourself inflated level-dependant abilities.

I think that when I was reading I just kind of automatically assumed that it only counts for the level that was immediately before the level of the bloodline. Without that, yeah I can see the potential.

[Darrin]

So basically they do the same thing as the Legacy Champion Prc?

Not exactly. Bloodline levels do not give you BAB, skill points, or saves. They don't advance class abilities per se, but advance abilities that are dependent on your class levels. This includes spellcasting, manifesting, binding, initiator levels, and so forth. This includes caster level (and also manifester or binder level) but not spells/powers known. The really wonky part is each bloodline level is added to *all* of your other classes and PrCs for determining your level-based abilities. So if you're multiclassed into two or more spellcasting classes, bloodlines advance them all at the same time, sorta like Mystic Theurge, except you don't get any new spells.

Legacy Champion gives you medium BAB, 4 skill points per level, good will save, and some legacy-related feats. It can only advance the abilities of one class at a time.

[IonDragon]

Besides the above mentioned reasons, if for example you have a minor bloodline you do not have to take a level until before level 12. So if you're playing in a campaign that may not last that long you get some minor benefits for free.

[Amphetryon]

Typical cheese tactics include Hellfire Warlock (now more than 3 levels long) and things like Anima Mage (advance both sides, yay).

[Kobold-Bard]

Typical cheese tactics include Hellfire Warlock (now more than 3 levels long) and things like Anima Mage (advance both sides, yay).

Use Abjurant Champion and suddenly you can Auto-Quicken all of your Level 3+4 Abjuration Spells.

Question: If I had Hellfire Warlock and Legacy Champion, could I use a Bloodline to advance both of these, effectively gaining 2 Levels of HW advancement in one go?

\/ - Ahhh I understand now. Sorry about that

[Douglas]

Bloodline levels do not advance features like spells per day, Legacy Champion's advancement, or anything that is expressed in the text with language similar to "at each level you gain..." It advances class features like Lay on Hands, Hellfire Warlock's damage boost, and War Weaver's limit on maximum spell level that can go through the Tapestry. The key language there is similar to "X amount per class level" or "to a maximum of your class level". Basically, if determining the power of a class ability is done by taking the text and replacing "class level" with a number, bloodline levels count. Otherwise they do not.

[2xMachina]

Legacy Champion + Mystic Theurge + Ur Priest = Crazy Caster lvls?

[LibraryOgre]

Hmmm... how would bloodline levels work with Martial Adepts and powers? It seems to me that the 3 "Lost" levels are less important for Martial Adepts than for spellcasters, allowing you to eke a bit more out of the classes, in some ways.

[Darrin]

Hmmm... how would bloodline levels work with Martial Adepts and powers?

Either "meh" or "hella crazy good!", depending on if you go crazy on multiclassing. All the bloodline levels are added to your Martial Adept and non-Martial Adept classes, so if you do a bunch of one-level dips, you can shoot your Initiator Level through the roof very quickly.

The math gets a bit obtuse, depending on how you interpret counting Bloodline levels as non-Martial Adept levels... do the Bloodline levels themselves count as +1/2 IL, or do they just add levels to your other classes?

A Barbarian 1/Duskblade 1/Ranger 1/Cleric 1/Swordsage 1/Warblade 1/Bloodline 3/Crusader 1 has an IL of either 17.5 (and can take 9th level maneuvers) or 16.0, depending on how you count. It can also pull off BassetKing's Infinite Damage trick around ECL 9-10.