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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    DJDizzy's Avatar

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    Default Rules Question about shield bash

    If a fighter is using shield bash at lvl 1 without two weapon fighting will he get the normal penalties associated with fighting with two weapons?

    (Oh, and how do I argue that the fighter really isnt the most useful class and the monk is almost worthless?)

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    Library Lovers Contest Winner
     
    Duke of URL's Avatar

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    Default Re: Rules Question about shield bash

    Yes and no. If he only bashes with the shield, then there's no TWF penalty. If he's bashing with the shield in addition to attacking with a weapon, then the normal TWF penalties apply (and without the TWF feat, they're pretty steep: -6/-10).

    At lower levels, Fighters and Monks can still hold their own quite well. The disparities aren't typically seen until level 6-8 or so.


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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Rules Question about shield bash

    Quote Originally Posted by Duke of URL View Post
    At lower levels, Fighters and Monks can still hold their own quite well. The disparities aren't typically seen until level 6-8 3-4 or so.
    I'll help you fix it :)
    Last edited by Eloel; 2010-01-11 at 08:01 AM.

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    Default Re: Rules Question about shield bash

    No, I disagree -- Monks are actually quite viable at low levels. One of the reason novice players and DMs think they're overpowered is that they're actually quite good early on. Damage output is low per hit, but with decent Dex/Wis, good AC and the extra attack never hurts (and can compensate for the low damage, especially when fighting low-AC enemies). Stunning Fist can be a "save or suck" at that level, too.

    Level 6 is often touted as the game's best balanced point. This is where melee types (including Fighter) start to wane and casters take over the game. By this point, the Monk is probably already falling behind the curve, but not too much earlier.


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    Titan in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Rules Question about shield bash

    Quote Originally Posted by Duke of URL View Post
    No, I disagree -- Monks are actually quite viable at low levels. One of the reason novice players and DMs think they're overpowered is that they're actually quite good early on. Damage output is low per hit, but with decent Dex/Wis, good AC and the extra attack never hurts (and can compensate for the low damage, especially when fighting low-AC enemies).
    Unless you have very genourous point buy then your monk with a decent dex and wis will have a strengths of 12 tops, so thats a total attack bonus of +1. -1 if you use FoB, dealing 1d6+1 damage per hit, i.e. less than a fighters greatsword attack, assuming they have 14 strength. Oh and FoB is a full round action, so no moving more than a 5ft step.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duke of URL View Post
    Stunning Fist can be a "save or suck" at that level, too.
    They can use it once per level, meaning at levels 1 and two, a wizard will have more uses of colour spray than they will of stunning fist.


    General for why melee is lacking: they can only deal hit point damage. Why is that a problem? A monster with 1 hp full attacks for the same damage it did when it had 50% of its hitpoints and 100%. Where as a wizard could use ray of enfeeblement to weaken it in the first round. Then theres the fact that melee is hurt by things that casters do not always even have to consider, like miss chances, and flying opponents.
    Last edited by Boci; 2010-01-11 at 11:59 AM.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Rules Question about shield bash

    The first 2 levels of monk are like the gateway drug of suckitude. They're actually very nice, you get useful and unique feats, saves and class features, and the BAB loss isn't as much of a problem because it's not a very large gap yet. Granted Flurry of Blows isn't that great, but other than that it's a nice 2 level dip. It's at level 3 and above that you enter the vast ocean of ineptness and sail the seas of fail. The 6th level bonus feat class feature should have a sign labeled 'Abandon hope, all ye who optimize past here.'

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    Default Re: Rules Question about shield bash

    Agreed that the first two levels of Monk are pretty nice, and if it had continued that way then the class might have been salvageable.

    Still, even at low levels you suffer from the definitive Monk problem - after years of training and dedication, you hit almost as hard as someone using a weapon, and defend yourself almost as well as someone wearing armor. Given that weapons and armor generally aren't even considered proper class features.... yeah, go you. =P



    (edit)
    Yeah, you can shield-bash just fine as long as you aren't swinging a sword too. 3.5 D&D has no handedness, so there's no inherently "off-handed" attack, just one that isn't your primary. Nothing stops you from using your shield-bash as your primary.
    Last edited by sonofzeal; 2010-01-12 at 12:47 PM.
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