[3.5] Hellbred Psion Telepath - Optimization

[Thiramon]

Hi!

Please help me out with my still-not-powerful-enough Hellbred Psion Telepath: Azrâzil, the Seducer... and soulless dominator. We're playing an evil campaign and my character's going to be the face of our group (thus I got my focus on telepathy powers, information gathering and social skills). Oh, and he collects souls for Asmodeus, too.

Houserules:

• Instead of gaining bonus skillpoints due to your intelligence modifier, we have physical and mental modifiers (physical: average attribute score of STR, CON and DEX, mental: average attribute score of CHA, WIS and INT; both rounded down) resulting in splitted additional skillpoints for physical and mental skills. Negative modifiers incur to lower your classes' bonus skillpoints down to at last 1. Like bonus hitpoints gained due to a high constitution, you get bonus skillpoints retroactively for changing those average attribute scores.
• In this campaign, all characters gain a major bloodline for free.
• Total sum of 80 points for attributes.

We're starting at level 11. All Bloodline aspects etc. are included in the following attribute and skill tables.

Hellbred Psion 20 (Devil Bloodline)
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Reflex|Will|Specials|Feats|Attribut es|Bloodline
1st|+0|+0|+0|+2|Telepath, Devil's grace, Psicrystal Affinity (Evil)*, Infernal Aspect: Spirit, Darkvision 9m|Widen Power||+2 on Bluff checks
2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3||||Dodge
3rd|+1|+1|+1|+3||Psicrystal Containment||Charisma +1
4th|+2|+1|+1|+4|||INT|Darkness 1/day (Sp)
5th|+2|+1|+1|+4|Psionic Meditation|||Devil affinity +2
6th|+3|+2|+2|+5|Darkvision 18m|Overchannel||Smite good 1/day (Su)
7th|+3|+2|+2|+5||||+2 on Diplomacy checks
8th|+4|+2|+2|+6|||INT|Resistance to fire 5 (Ex)
9th|+4|+3|+3|+6|Darkvision 36m|Talented||Constitution +1
10th|+5|+3|+3|+7|Extend Power|||+2 on saves against poison (Ex)
11th|+5|+3|+3|+7||||Devil affinity +4
12th|+6/+1|+4|+4|+8|Darkvision even in Deeper darkness|Insightful Reflexes|INT|Resistance to acid 5 (Ex)
13th|+6/+1|+4|+4|+8||||+2 on Search checks
14th|+7/+2|+4|+4|+9||||Alertness
15th|+7/+2|+5|+5|+9|Empower Power, Telepathy 30m|Improved Initative||Intelligence +1
16th|+8/+3|+5|+5|+10|||INT|Resistance to cold 5 (Ex)
17th|+8/+3|+5|+5|+10||||Devil affinity +6
18th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+11||Maximize Power||+1 to natural armor
19th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+11||||+2 on Listen checks
20th|+10/+5|+6|+6|+12|Twin Power||INT|Damage reduction 5/good[/table]

* Evil personality is homebrewed, as "friendly" doesn't fit my devil. It does the same +3 on Diplomacy checks.

{table=head]Attribute|Base|Race|Levels|Bloodline|Sum|Modifier| Comments
STR|8||||8|-1|
CON|13|-2||+1|12|+1|Infernal aspect -2, Bloodline Devil +1
DEX|10||||10|0
INT|18||+2||20|+5
WIS|14||||14|+2
CHA|17|+2||+1|20|+5|Infernal aspect +2, Bloodline Devil +1[/table]

{table=head]Skill|Ability Mod.|Rank|Bonus|Sum|Comments
Concentration|1|14|5|20|Devil's Eye +5
Sense motive|2|12|7|21|Devil's Eye +5, Infernal aspect +2
Bluff|6|14|7|27|Bloodline +2, Devil's Eye +5
Diplomacy|6|14|16|36|Bloodline +2, Devil's Eye +5, Synergies +6, Psicrystal +3
Gather information|8|5|2|15|Synergy +2
Psicraft|8|10|2|20|Synergy +2
Knowledge (local)|8|5|0|13
Knowledge (royal and nobility)|8|5|0|13
Knowledge (psionics)|8|5|0|13
[/table]

Due to RP causes, I took a Pactum Arcanum to become lawful evil, thus gaining two extra feats (Brand of the Nine Hells and Mark of Nessus) and one bonus language. Did I say RP? Okay, PG, too.

Powers (from 1st to 9th grade):
Charm, Psionic, Detect Psionics, Mind Thrust, Inertial Armor, Energy Ray, Ego Whip, Suggestion, Psionic, Energy Stun, Read Thoughts, Crisis of Breath, Touchsight, False Sensory Input, Dispel Psionics, Schism, Modify Memory, Psionic, Death Urge, Plane Shift, Psionic, Mind Probe, Adapt Body, True Seeing, Psionic, Aura Alteration, Mind Switch, Disintegrate, Psionic, Mind Blank, Personal, Decerebrate, Energy Wave, Teleport, Psionic Greater, Mind Seed, Crisis of Life, Microcosmos, Mind Switch, True, Psionic Surgery, Bend Reality, homebrewed Mind Rape, Psionic, one power left...

Items (only those worth knowing):
- Headband of Intellect +6
- Psionatrix of Telepathy
- Third eye of the Devil alias "Devil's Eye" (homebrewed, +5 on Concentration, Diplomacy, Sense Motive and Bluff checks, permanent Undetectable alignement)
- Ring of Alter Self (homebrewed, permanent Alter Self)
- Cloak of Charisma +2

Let's say I use an overchanneled Mind Thrust with 13 Power Points, the DC would be 10 + 1 (power level) + 6 (augmented) + 1 (Psionatrix of Telepathy) + 8 (INT-Modifier) = 26. Comparing this to a full WILL-Save with a WIS-modifier of +5 (for a total of 12), I only have a chance of 65% to do damage. So my question to you fellow Playgrounders is:

How can I increase the DC of my powers even further? Are there options that are more beneficial than the ones I took above? I'd welcome every advice regarding my build.

I've got all available Books except some regional supplements.

Thanks in advance,

Thiramon

[Thiramon]

So many views, but not a single post. Am I missing something? No suggestions for my build?

Regards,

Thiramon

[Thrice Dead Cat]

So many views, but not a single post. Am I missing something? No suggestions for my build?

Regards,

Thiramon

I question the use of Hellbred, as it hurts Con and boosts Cha, which should by all rights be a dump stat. Alternatively, it hurts Int and boosts Con, which still ain't doing you any good.

[Glimbur]

Don't use Mind Thrust?

[Thiramon]

Oops, it is "Hellbred"? Sorry, mistranslated it.

Well, I agree on Hellbred - it's not perfect, but it offers some nice stuff: Darkness (bloodline) in combination with Darkvision even in Deeper darkness, Telepathy, Charisma +2 and - last but not least - pretty much flavor, fitting this characters "soulmonger" theme. And it's the only "devilish" race (afaik) without LA. Are there better ones, somehow fitting this theme, Thrice Dead Cat?

Being the face of the group, I doubt having Charisma as a dump stat. Plus, it powers Mark of Nessus - am I wrong thinking this feat is really worth taking, beeing some kind of "Don't touch me!"-joker?

Don't use Mind Thrust?

What's wrong with that?

Regards,

Thiramon

[Starbuck_II]

Well, Mind Thurst is save or none. If they make the save no damage. While 1d10 is a good damage, the chance is you wasted a turn if they succeed.
So it is kinda risky.

Do you have Complete Psionics? Some good powers in there.

[Mooch]

enless you are set on being a psion i would suggest a class that uses charisma as its main stat

[Thiramon]

Well, Mind Thurst is save or none. If they make the save no damage. While 1d10 is a good damage, the chance is you wasted a turn if they succeed.
So it is kinda risky.

Do you have Complete Psionics? Some good powers in there.

Yeah, maybe too risky (that's why I try to increase my DCs), but I thought having a raw damage power for each save would do good. Guess I'll replace it - any recommendations for other powers or those in Complete Psionics (I'll hopefully get that on the weekend)?

enless you are set on being a psion i would suggest a class that uses charisma as its main stat

I'm quarreling with myself about the Wilder, who looks great on the one hand, but then again he lacks a lot of versatility with only eleven powers known. So the best choice seems to be the Psion, as I'd like to give those psionic classes a try.

Damn late shipping of my Complete Psionics!

Regards,

Thiramon

[Person_Man]

I would dump the mostly useless Devil Bloodline and take red/gold dragon (energy immunity), storm giant (Freedom of Movement, Electricity Immunity), or even Titan (use oversized weapon!) instead. Similarly, there are many better races then Hellbred. This is especially true for a Hellbred Telepath. Why waste resources getting a Hellbred's Telepathy, when you have access to it through your class? And remember, crunch does not equal fluff. You can roleplay the character exactly the same way as a Storm Giant Bloodline human character as you can with a Hellbred Devil Bloodline character.

Also, the best way to increase the DC of your psion abilities is to debuff your enemies. Look for ways to impose conditions, ability damage, ability penalties, poison (Fabricate), Fear effects, etc. Make sure your fellow party members know this, and that you work as a team.

Houserules:[LIST][*]Instead of gaining bonus skillpoints due to your intelligence modifier, we have physical and mental modifiers (physical: average attribute score of STR, CON and DEX, mental: average attribute score of CON, WIS and INT; both rounded down) resulting in splitted additional skillpoints for physical and mental skills.

Wait, what? CON, Wis Int? You mean CHA, Wis, Int?

Also, doesn't this entirely nerf Int, which has nothing going for it except that it grants you Skill Points. And doesn't this basically mean that someone with Int 18 Wis 4 Cha 4 has worse Skills then someone with Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 10? That doesn't make any sense. How exactly does this work?

[Thiramon]

...

Also, the best way to increase the DC of your psion abilities is to debuff your enemies. Look for ways to impose conditions, ability damage, ability penalties, poison (Fabricate), Fear effects, etc. Make sure your fellow party members know this, and that you work as a team.

Guess you're right about the bloodline. It's just that you got a picture of your character and then try to get the best mixture of class/race to build it up. Maybe I'll give it a second look.

On Telepathy: Well, I just find Missive on the list of powers - that's just one way. Did I miss it?

Fear effects and poison, that could work well with our Blackguard. I'll try to figure out some tactics for the rest.

Thanks for your tips so far, all of you guys!

Wait, what? CON, Wis Int? You mean CHA, Wis, Int?

Also, doesn't this entirely nerf Int, which has nothing going for it except that it grants you Skill Points. And doesn't this basically mean that someone with Int 18 Wis 4 Cha 4 has worse Skills then someone with Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 10? That doesn't make any sense. How exactly does this work?

Corrected CON/CHA, sorry. Well, yes, it does nerf INT, but it does help most characters to gain some skillpoints without having a focus on INT. We introduced it because most of our characters simply don't get enough skillpoints - for example our barbarian who would be too dumb to jump properly (INT 8) or our cleric, who'll never reach the high levels of wisdom in his order (INT 10; simply not enough skillpoints to put into knowledges in addition to all his other skills). So we started thinking... and invented this - truly far from perfect - houserule.

It's about having three pots for your skillpoints - physical, mental and class pot. Physical points just work for STR/CON/DEX-based skills, mental points for INT/WIS/CHA-based skills. Class skillpoints work for both.

Let's say we have a typical barbarian with some rolled stats, like 17, 15, 13, 12, 8, and a 7. Forget about race and other things, just focus on that.

STR 17
CON 15
DEX 13
INT 8
WIS 12
CHA 7

Physical modifier: (17+16+15)/3 = 15 = +2
Mental modifier: (11+12+7)/3 = 9 = -1

Now our humble barbarian gains 2 bonus skillpoints for his STR/CON/DEX-based skills. As he has a negative mental modifier, he doesn't gain bonus mental skillpoints - in fact, he even has to substract that -1 from his class skillpoints. In total, he'd have 3+2 skillpoints instead of just 3.

This works the same for negative physical modifiers.

So coming back to your question: Yes, the first character would have less skillpoints than the first one (in fact: -1). But I guess his average physical attributes would be around 12, resulting in a physical modifier of +1, representing some kind of focus on his physical stats, and so on his physical skills. *coughs*

It's a big nerf for high INT characters, but it usually helps all others. Our wizard hated it on invention, my new hellbred psion misses his skillpoints, too, but overall, it's a pretty fair deal for our entire group, so we can live with that. Maybe it's that we don't build such characters, having wide ranged stats in the physical or mental attributes (a wizard in our gaming group usually has a high INT and either a decent WIS or CHA, so the "total nerf example" doesn't happen).

Back to this hero then. I'd say PM me or I'll open a new thread, if you'd like to know more or have a discussion. Believe me, we had lots.

Regards,

Thiramon

[Raiki]

Forget mind thrust. It's a trap, so says the Admiral.

Focus on Ego Whip. Augmented to 11 PP, that's 3d4 cha damage, will save for half, DC 25 [10 +2 (power level) +1 (Psionatrix) +4 (Augmentation) +8 (Int Mod)]. Using your previous formula, that's 60% chance to do ~10 Cha Dmg, 40% chance to do 5 Cha Dmg.

Also, check out the minds eye articles on the Wizards Site. Specifically The Arch Psion. You'll need 1 more level to qualify, and it needs some (very slight) 3.5 updating, but it's VERY worth it. Take a hard look at greater psionic focus 1-3, sculpt power, and psionic reach.

~R~

[Person_Man]

Corrected CON/CHA, sorry. Well, yes, it does nerf INT, but it does help most characters to gain some skillpoints without having a focus on INT. We introduced it because most of our characters simply don't get enough skillpoints - for example our barbarian who would be too dumb to jump properly (INT 8) or our cleric, who'll never reach the high levels of wisdom in his order (INT 10; simply not enough skillpoints to put into knowledges in addition to all his other skills). So we started thinking... and invented this - truly far from perfect - houserule.

Well for one thing, that nerfs Skill Monkeys, like Rogues, Factotums, and Bards. Giving everyone else lots of Skills makes them weaker. If your Barbarian wants more Skills, he should invest in higher Int and accept a lower Wis or Cha. If the Cleric wants Skills, he only needs to read his own spell list, because it's chock full of buffs. Or they should multi-class or PrC. It's not that they don't have Skills, it's that they're unwilling to make the investment needed to get them.

If you're wedded to finding an alternate Skill system, you might want to try Pathfinders. It consolidates many Skills, and eliminates cross class Skills (instead you get +3 to every class Skill that you have at least 1 rank in). In practice this means that your skill points go further than they used to, and previously obscure skills like Balance and Forgery are a lot more common. Plus almost everyone has Perception (Spot and Listen) and/or Acrobatics (Jump, Tumble, Balance).

Back on topic...

On Telepathy: Well, I just find Missive on the list of powers - that's just one way. Did I miss it?

Um, the entire Telepath power list... Mindlink, Read Thoughts, etc.

[Cyclocone]

Since you're playing a Telepath anyway, you can take an ACF that grants Telepathy. Also, Mindsight.

So, since you don't need Hellbred for telepathy, how about Lesser Tiefling for a nice +2 INT?

For higher DC's, get Psionc Endowment +Greater and maybe Illithid Compulsion.

BTW, If you like cheese, there's always Subverted Psion.

[Thiramon]

Forget mind thrust. It's a trap, so says the Admiral.

Also, check out the minds eye articles on the Wizards Site. Specifically The Arch Psion. You'll need 1 more level to qualify, and it needs some (very slight) 3.5 updating, but it's VERY worth it. Take a hard look at greater psionic focus 1-3, sculpt power, and psionic reach.

~R~

Aye, already kicked it off my list. :)

Arch Psion is great, Raiki - thanks for the tip, that's definitely what I was looking for. A dip for three (Greater Psionic Focus - can't believe it does stack ) up to five levels (as you said, reach and sculpt) fits perfectly. I'll work it out with my DM.

Um, the entire Telepath power list... Mindlink, Read Thoughts, etc.

Sorry, I didn't write out all my thoughts. You're right, Mindlink f.e. works well, but I was looking for an even cheaper at-will/all-day bidirectionaly telepathy - and now it pays off:

Since you're playing a Telepath anyway, you can take an ACF that grants Telepathy. Also, Mindsight.

So, since you don't need Hellbred for telepathy, how about Lesser Tiefling for a nice +2 INT?

For higher DC's, get Psionc Endowment +Greater and maybe Illithid Compulsion.

BTW, If you like cheese, there's always Subverted Psion.

Now Mindsight, that's awesome. It will add some nice new options for my character. I'll re-read the rules for Taint, but I think it would be a little bit too much for one build - as for a another, I already got some ideas (together with The Body Leech (PrC)). The WotC-Archives, especially "The Mind's Eye" are a great source of inspiration - thank you for the links.

Lesser Tieflings? Where do I find them? Maybe Faerûn? Gotta look it up. A little bit more intelligence, a fiendish Tiefling... could work well!

Again, I'd like to thank all of you - you helped me a lot.

Regards,

Thiramon