Wizards, worst class you can play in a real game

[taltamir]

Wizards, by the RAW, are pure unadulterated power. They are gods among insects. The only thing that can best a wizard is another wizard. Although a few other full casters come close...

Then you get real gameplay...
But with a wizard it is an all or nothing kind of deal, wizards who aren't casting spells are effectively commoners.

DMs will hate their power and brokenness, they will hate how many of their powers (which are essential to the wizard's survival) completely break the campaign. They will hate how they overshadow the others, they will hate the perceived power (since your DM probably read about he tier system and how every char op is about wizards).

So the ban hammer starts dropping. Gone are the good spells (with the exception of buffing), gone are the good feats, gone are the good PrCs, gone are meta reducers, gone are the pathways to real and awesome power...
You are left with a simpering 4HD low bab and 2 bad saves character who is only good at one thing, buffing. with a dash of crowd control and defensive spells.

And that doesn't even take into account the really extreme DM's who start to fiat away all the wizards powers... aka, someone sunders your spellbook, you need to track every material component, even cheap ones; you wake up bound and gagged and your spellbook and component pouch are gone; spells don't quite work right; everything has insane SR and saves, and spells that ignore either are not allowed... etc.

But, you think to yourself... buffing is pretty good, right? you can play god? you can hire hirelings, you can build a golem...
Can you though? DnD is a group game... sure, summoning a monster and then getting out of the way sounds great on paper, but that isn't team playing.

So there you are, trying to sit in the back out of combat, dropping the occasional buff, CC, or summon... You will be skipping turns, a lot; skipping turns is not fun. You will be dying, dying is not fun. You will never ever kill something yourself; not killing anything isn't fun...
And unlike your team mates, your character sheet takes the absolute most amount of work to write and maintain. Many more hours will go into the effort of building and maintaining a wizard then other classes.

And what if the DM allows everything? unless he is dumbing down opponents, then you will end up with every fight being a wizard fight... the PC party wizard vs the NPC wizard. If either has no wizard, it loses. Also not fun... because you are trying to play with people, not against people.

The end result is a class that is theoretically godly and overpowered, and in effect not fun to play, and not all that worthwhile to play either.

[Swordgleam]

Is this true? I know according to the ideas of charOp it's true, but I've never seen a real game play out like that. Usually everyone is about the same power level regardless of class, though player skill makes some characters more useful than others.

Maybe it's because most of the people I game with don't read gaming forums. But I feel like there's a considerable gap in the experiences of those who don't and those who do.

[jmbrown]

The wizard's power is directly proportional to the source books allowed at the table. A lot of spells that float around this forum like nerveskitter and mindrape I've never heard of primarily because I never kept up with the thirty something splat books. Power gaming in general assumes you have access to everything you want exactly when it should be available. If the DM puts a limit on anything, such as making Blessed Book worth 40x its base cost, then the player's plans are forced to change.

This doesn't change anything, though. Houserules, ban lists, and errata doesn't change the fact that wizard is more powerful than everyone else. Even if you play the game using core material, RAW only, and elite array the wizard is still in a league of his own. The fighter needs magic armor, magic swords, and magic potions. The wizard needs a headband and a book. Depending on what material you allow, neither.

As far as the not fun to play thing, that's an opinion. I know plenty of people who have fun breaking everything.

[FishAreWet]

Wizards, worst class you can play in a game with an ass of a DM.

[Vizzerdrix]

If we are talking real play, I have never seen any class nerfed that much in my twelve years of play. Ever.

And if the DM gets that pissy over wizards, then make a druid

[FishAreWet]

The wizard's power is directly proportional to the source books allowed at the table. A lot of spells that float around this forum like nerveskitter and mindrape I've never heard of primarily because I never kept up with the thirty something splat books. Power gaming in general assumes you have access to everything you want exactly when it should be available. If the DM puts a limit on anything, such as making Blessed Book worth 40x its base cost, then the player's plans are forced to change.

This doesn't change anything, though. Houserules, ban lists, and errata doesn't change the fact that wizard is more powerful than everyone else. Even if you play the game using core material, RAW only, and elite array the wizard is still in a league of his own.

As far as the not fun to play thing, that's an opinion. I know plenty of people who have fun breaking everything.

Core, by far, has the highest concentration of unadulterated OPness.

Splatbooks let you get creative, but core has Genesis, Gate, Planar Bindings, Wish, all the Images...

[Vizzerdrix]

Core, by far, has the highest concentration of unadulterated OPness yummness.

Oh hai I fixed this 4U ^_^

[Boci]

The wizard's power is directly proportional to the source books allowed at the table.

As is every class. A wizard can be fun though, especially if you focus on buffing, although debuffing and battlefield control can also be managed without making other classes feel useless.

[Zen Master]

Is this true? I know according to the ideas of charOp it's true, but I've never seen a real game play out like that. Usually everyone is about the same power level regardless of class, though player skill makes some characters more useful than others.

Maybe it's because most of the people I game with don't read gaming forums. But I feel like there's a considerable gap in the experiences of those who don't and those who do.

Quite so. And being a guy who mostly plays sword-swingers, I have powered right through the defences of so many wizards, I've lost count.

There is one wizard I remember - well, three, but the last two are Azalin and Strahd, and they hardly count, but the ancient elf king from that old Dragon Magazine. What was his name again? Anyways, that's off-topic.

I've never seen wizards as overpowered. Only one contingency, no all-day buffs, and a general consensus that both scrying and teleporting detract from the game - that's pretty much all it takes. Oh, and our games tend to stop around level 14 max. That helps a lot too, I suspect.

[Longcat]

Anyone who complains about Wizards hasn't had a StP Erudite in his game yet.

That said, most people who play wizards aren't OPers. They will try to take the spells they think are "cool", which usually means Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Fly etc, e.g. mostly blasting. With such a "bad" spell selection, even wizards tend to drop in tiers.

And yes, I've actually seen a Monk/Cleric/Sacred Fist consistently outperform a Wizard/Incantatrix.

[Mando Knight]

The wizard's power is directly proportional to the source books allowed at the table.

Actually, I believe the basics of the God-Wizard are found in core and the Spell Compendium, with some possible other support from Complete Arcane and Complete Mage... perhaps PHB2...

[jmbrown]

Core, by far, has the highest concentration of unadulterated OPness.

Splatbooks let you get creative, but core has Genesis, Gate, Planar Bindings, Wish, all the Images...

Emphasis mine. Creativity is exactly what puts the wizard above everyone else. Core may contain powerful spells but the splat books give him far greater access to it.

[taltamir]

I honestly don't think its splat books that are at fault... most of the broken comes directly out of core...

sure things like incantantrix and the like are found out of core. But core has things like polymorph, planar bindings, SLA = no cost, meta reducers (rods of metamagic), abusive spells and metamagic galore, spells that make you practically invulnerable, school specialization, etc.

Core only? bag of holding + shrink item + boulders + flight.
fly over a city and turn it upside down.

Anyone who complains about Wizards hasn't had a StP Erudite in his game yet.

That said, most people who play wizards aren't OPers. They will try to take the spells they think are "cool", which usually means Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Fly etc, e.g. mostly blasting. With such a "bad" spell selection, even wizards tend to drop in tiers.

And yes, I've actually seen a Monk/Cleric/Sacred Fist consistently outperform a Wizard/Incantatrix.

all the worst for those poor souls when they try using a useless spell like fireball... with full ban and nerf lists that take into account a char opper...

which introduces another problem, DMs having to comb through every wizard's character sheet and balance it on a case by case basis

[Boci]

Quite so. And being a guy who mostly plays sword-swingers, I have powered right through the defences of so many wizards, I've lost count.

Overland flight? (Magic items can be dispelled)

[Swordgleam]

That said, most people who play wizards aren't OPers. They will try to take the spells they think are "cool", which usually means Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Fly etc, e.g. mostly blasting. With such a "bad" spell selection, even wizards tend to drop in tiers.

Look, if you can't flood a 10' wide corridor full of bad guys and your allies with sheer molten flame, I don't even understand the point of having magic.

[FishAreWet]

Emphasis mine. Creativity is exactly what puts the wizard above everyone else. Core may contain powerful spells but the splat books give him far greater access to it.

you're right, but the creativity isn't needed. The creativity is great, but Core alone puts him above everyone else.

[Weezer]

Yes, if the DM hates wizards then it can be hard to play, of course if the DM bans everything that makes you a good class (apparently all non-buff spells??) then yes you're gonna suck. But a reasonable dm who just gets rid of the utterly broken spells (gate, wish, genesis, polymorph etc.) and game shattering prc's (tainted scholar, Iot7V, Incantatrix) will still leave a valid and very strong class.

[ericgrau]

Is this true? I know according to the ideas of charOp it's true, but I've never seen a real game play out like that. Usually everyone is about the same power level regardless of class, though player skill makes some characters more useful than others.

Maybe it's because most of the people I game with don't read gaming forums. But I feel like there's a considerable gap in the experiences of those who don't and those who do.

+1. This is what I always experience, and I've seen others mention it dozens of times. Must suck to play after visiting char op if the OP is right. Though I wonder if even the char op people keep things under control for the sake of fun.

Overland flight? (Magic items can be dispelled)

1. See above on char op.
2. This isn't even good char op. There's the maneuverability limitations on overland flight often making it impractical, ranged weapons, dispel checks take a turn and may or may not succeed, who goes first, what your opponents does in the meantime, fighting another group with a caster who can fly the non-casters or just plain flying monsters, etc., etc. It's one thing when players choose not to put char op into practice. It's another when you start getting into the 50 different theoretical counters for 50 possible attacks which means if you want to prepare for everything you must burn more spell slots, gold and/or turns than you have... and then roll well without fail.

[jmbrown]

I honestly don't think its splat books that are at fault... most of the broken comes directly out of core...

sure things like incantantrix and the like are found out of core. But core has things like polymorph, planar bindings, SLA = no cost, meta reducers (rods of metamagic), abusive spells and metamagic galore, spells that make you practically invulnerable, school specialization, etc.

Core only? bag of holding + shrink item + boulders + flight.
fly over a city and turn it upside down.



all the worst for those poor souls when they try using a useless spell like fireball... with full ban and nerf lists that take into account a char opper...

which introduces another problem, DMs having to comb through every wizard's character sheet and balance it on a case by case basis

And the splat books contain persistent spell, divine metamagic, sudden metamagic, eiditic spellcaster, etc. If core is opening the flood gates then supplements are blowing up the whole dam.

[Mongoose87]

Honestly, if the DM ever sundered my spellbook for anything less than a good story or dramatic reason, I would probably pack up my dice and leave. Sundering a spellbook is essentially saying "You don't get class features for today."

[aje8]

No. I'd have to disagree.

I've certaintly seen Wizards be the strongest class at the the table. It's possible, though, for Wizard to be the strongest without anyone knowing it. The God Style Wizard primarily does Battlefiel Control and Buff (with debuff a seocndary role) and niether of those things make it particularty obvious that the Wizard is doing the heavy lifting in party.

For those reasons and others I've never seen anyone nerf a Wizard that hard.

It should be noted though, that Wizards aren't automatically problematic balance wise. Assuming none of the players engage in infinite loops, Wizards are pretty fine in an optimized party. Yes, Wizard 20>>>>>>Fighter 20, but if your part mates are cleric, Warblade and Factotum the difference doesn't show very much. If your part is all optimized tier 1s and 2s, then the difference doesn't show at all. Problems occur only in a part like: Optimized Wizard, Sword and Board Fighter, Rogue, Healer. When party members are of uneven optimization or of uneven or of wildly uneven tiers, there are major problems.

[taltamir]

Quite so. And being a guy who mostly plays sword-swingers, I have powered right through the defences of so many wizards, I've lost count.

There is one wizard I remember - well, three, but the last two are Azalin and Strahd, and they hardly count, but the ancient elf king from that old Dragon Magazine. What was his name again? Anyways, that's off-topic.

I've never seen wizards as overpowered. Only one contingency, no all-day buffs, and a general consensus that both scrying and teleporting detract from the game - that's pretty much all it takes. Oh, and our games tend to stop around level 14 max. That helps a lot too, I suspect.

you know, I completely forgot about the fact that games don't usually go high enough level...

you typically start level 1... you are not really contributing to the party until level 5 when you get haste. (the ONLY spell worth casting using your SL3 slots, prepare it as many times a day as you can to maximize your contribution)
Oh sure you have glitterdust and grease... but limited castings per day combined with what is an extremely utility spell that serves merely to make things easier on your fighters (the blind guy is still gonna slaughter you if you go against him 1 vs 1).

Teleport and scrying DO horribly detract from the game... and are essential for wizard survival...
Although typically DMs leave some teleport ability in... I have never ever ever gotten scrying that was worth casting. Scrying is used solely as a DM tool in games and you try to scry things yourself you get useless cryptic answers... not the perfect scenarios given by char oppers.

[FishAreWet]

{Scrubbed}

[Vizzerdrix]

Yes, if the DM hates wizards then it can be hard to play, of course if the DM bans everything that makes you a good class (apparently all non-buff spells??) then yes you're gonna suck. But a reasonable dm who just gets rid of the utterly broken spells (gate, wish, genesis, polymorph etc.) and game shattering prc's (tainted scholar, Iot7V, Incantatrix) will still leave a valid and very strong class.

I disagree. A reasonable DM won't ban such spells, a responsible player will choose to not use them.

Magic itself scales poorly in D&D. No matter what your using, be it a buffer, blaster or what have you, around level 10 you'll outclass the party. This is a flaw in the system.

taltamir, you say casters don't contribute untill around level 5 or so. I hate to be the guy that says it, but then the players are doing it wrong. Levels 1~4 should be spent putting things to sleep and OHKing them, or using grease, or Summoning flankers for sneak attack, or thinning out the weenies so the beat sticks can get to the bigger baddies, or..... You get the idea.

[Chaelos]

I've played with DMs that wouldn't hesitate to ban spells after a single usage by our party wizard. I've seen DM's whose creatures miraculously "save" on some ungodly high save-or-die/save-or-suck DC's--emphasis on "", of course, because on at least one occasion I can remember, we could actually see the DM's roll and, based on what we'd already deduced about the monster, there's no way it could have saved without DM fiat. More often, I've seen DMs start dropping in monsters with ungodly high spell resistance that nobody short of the munchkieniest munchkin around could possibly get through.

But I've also played with DM's that rewarded a shrewd usage of enervation or magic jar, and I've seen one wizard pull off all kinds of cheese via planar binding. I love playing wizards/sorcerers, but there's no other class I've ever seen in a real game that's been so consistently susceptible to DM's whimsy. The power of a wizard--more so than other classes, it is my contention--is more related to the DM than any other single factor in the game.

[JaronK]

This post is describing what new and poor DMs will often do. And you know what? It's pretty true. But it's why communication between DMs and players is important. Don't show up to a game with a full power Wizard (or Archivist, or whatever) without talking the DM first about whether it'll fit in the game. For many games, it's too powerful, and if the DM wasn't ready for it his only response is to slam down banhammers left and right.

Wizards are inappropriate for normal power games, and should never be sprung on a DM without expecting negative results.

In fact, with some DMs the Crusader is by far the strongest class. They'd ban anything that does anything unexpected anyway, all the challenges are assuming kick in the door tactics, and if you kill too quickly they'll just raise the HPs or improve the saves... so a class that kills slower but can't die is perfect.

JaronK

[Stegyre]

Anyone who complains about Wizards hasn't had a StP Erudite in his game yet.

With a Dweomer of Transference being powered by eldritch blasts.
Give me this for Christmas, Santa, and I'll never ask for anything else again.

[aje8]

you know, I completely forgot about the fact that games don't usually go high enough level...

you typically start level 1... you are not really contributing to the party until level 5 when you get haste. (the ONLY spell worth casting using your SL3 slots, prepare it as many times a day as you can to maximize your contribution)
Oh sure you have glitterdust and grease... but limited castings per day combined with what is an extremely utility spell that serves merely to make things easier on your fighters (the blind guy is still gonna slaughter you if you go against him 1 vs 1).

No offense but I'd have to strongly disagree.

At level 1-2, yes a house cat could kill a Wizard.

But at level 3, a Wizard is abosultley fine. Even if you prepare nothing but Glitterdusts and Webs, you're seriously contributing. I don't know if a Wizard could beat a Fighter at that level, but at the very least, Glitterdust is simply ending encounters. And it's not like your dying either..... there is basically no way around Invisibility or Mirror Image at that level so if you want to, it's easy to get out of trouble.

At level 5, a Wizard is probably substatially stronger than a Fighter, again, I don't know if he'd win a duel but he's simply contributing to encounter to a larger degree. He can make a Fighter-lite with Summon Monster 3, he now has access to Stinking Cloud and Sculpted Glitterdust as encounter enders. Also, he's really frickin hard to kill because of fly combined with his previous defensive abilities. He does have access to Haste you mentioned but he also gets access to it's as powerful brother slow.

Seriously Wizard have plenty of options at levels 3-5. Though it's true that they don't outright pwn all other classes until level 7.

[taltamir]

Honestly, if the DM ever sundered my spellbook for anything less than a good story or dramatic reason, I would probably pack up my dice and leave. Sundering a spellbook is essentially saying "You don't get class features for today."

never happened to, although I Would pack up and leave too if a DM ever sundered my spellbook...

but the forums are full of DMs who say that is exactly what they do. Just recently there was a thread about controlling wizard power discussing exactly that, and it seemed to me that it was 50% saying that it is a jerk move, and 50% saying that it is a valid way to control wizard powers.

BTW... I love warlock, its "wizardish" without the whole "the DM is gonna screw you to heck" bit. Also you don't have to "sit out" during combat.

PS. some are saying "I have never seen people nerf wizards that hard".. this is the general "standard nerf list" I see here on the forums... frankly, I have played with people who nerfed wizards harder then that. (ex: you get 1 and only 1 school to cast spells from - no specialization bonus; see how many levels you can go before dying since you don't have any arcane defenses whatsoever).

and it didn't really balance the games either...

PPS. as for save or die/ save or suck... that is where the entire power of the wizard comes from... this is why WOTC officially said that they gave them d4... and you know what? even if the DM does not nerf those and it WORKS you still suck...
You either insta gibben the BBEG and ruined EVERYONE's fun, everyone in the table now hates you...
or you failed and ended up doing absolutely nothing that encounter...

[sonofzeal]

The wizard's power is directly proportional to the source books allowed at the table.

......yeah, no. Almost all the best Wizard spells are Core. Seriously, read just about any thread lauding the Wizard's power, and at least 90% of the spells mentioned will be core. Celerity's one of the only major exceptions, but otherwise the vast majority of tricks and builds work pretty much straight off Core.


Contrast with any Fighter thread, where Shock Trooper (CW), Leap Attack (CAdv), Robilar's Gambit (PHB2), and Martial Study/Martial Stance (ToB) all come up regularly. The only "optimized" Fighter builds I know of in Core are Spirited Charge, or Lockdown-oriented, and even the latter practically requires Mage Slayer (CArc).

Wizards do get a boost from extra sources (Celerity, Abrupt Jaunt, Orb spells), but not nearly on the same level.