[3.5e] Epic Spellcasting: A God Am I

[Da'Shain]

So in our epic evil campaign of the moment, I'm just about to hit level 21 (working with an LA of +7 for being a Rakshasa), and the fluff of my character is that he's trying to fuse arcane (innate sorcerous talent) with divine (stolen gods' powers a la Ur-Priest) power in order to ascend to godhood. Pretty standard evil fare, I know.

However, epic spells in our game are apparently going to be "plot devices" moreso than actual, real-time spells. What my DM seems to mean by this is that we can research them, and cast them if we get a chance, but they will not be part of standard combat or anything like that. He wants them to be suitably "epic", not simply the equivalent of 10th level spells.

Well, what's more epic than ascending to godhood, or mounting a stepping stone on the path to it? What I'm looking for here is suggestions on how to combine Epic Spell seeds into giving some approximation of a divine rank. So far, the only idea I have on this particular goal is a ritual involving the Life and Transform seeds, but neither seem to have rules that are directly applicable so would probably require some sort of ad hoc ruling by the DM.

My resources are pretty large, but not as vast as I probably need. I have almost a hundred thousand gold at the moment, and it seems as though I'll be getting much more over the course of the next few adventure. I have access to both arcane and divine level 9 spells, I have the maximum amount of followers allowed by the Leadership feat (almost all of whom are some type of magic user, fluff-wise on the path to becoming Ur-Priests themselves, who can contribute at least a level 1 spell slot) and we will be getting Epic Leadership for free at some unspecified point in the near future. I have a sanctum floating on the Astral Plane where most of my followers study for me and steal what power they can, and I have access to several +Spellcraft items including a Rod of Epic Spellcasting.

So, is anything like this possible? Or should I see about less epic epic spells, like maybe trying to make a Rain of Fire analog or some such? I was idly considering a similar spell with the Energy(weather) and Conjure seeds, called "Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies," but I think that would be a bit too tongue in cheek for this campaign.

[Longcat]

Is chain-gating Solars to assist you an option?

[Da'Shain]

I doubt it, but I can always ask; he allows some crazy stuff to work once, with limits, sometimes. So maybe.

[SurlySeraph]

He's a Rakshasha. He'll have to do it with Efreets or something instead. Solars are not likely to assist an evil god-hating tigerman.

[arguskos]

He's a Rakshasha. He'll have to do it with Efreets or something instead. Solars are not likely to assist an evil god-hating tigerman.

Gate cares why? It forces service, so Solars work. Just another reason Gate is stupid.

[Longcat]

Gate cares why? It forces service, so Solars work. Just another reason Gate is stupidawesome.

Fixed it for you

[Da'Shain]

Yeah, I think forcing Solars into serving me would definitely come back to bite me in the ass with this DM, considering his gods do NOT like Ur-Priests (or rakshasas in general, but Ur-Priests get their goat much moreso), and I imagine would like them trying to become competitors even less.

Are the solars in this instance being chain-gated to contribute a 9th level spell slot, or wishes for something, or what?

[JoshuaZ]

So somewhat cheesy but are any of your followers or your cohorts thrallminds? If so you can get lots of extra followers which allow for extra spell slot cheese.


I seem to recall that there's a PrC for dragons that does actually end in explicit gaining of divine rank. So you could make an epic spell that transforms you into a dragon of appropriate form and with all the levels in that PrC.

[Jack_Simth]

So somewhat cheesy but are any of your followers or your cohorts thrallminds? If so you can get lots of extra followers which allow for extra spell slot cheese.


I seem to recall that there's a PrC for dragons that does actually end in explicit gaining of divine rank. So you could make an epic spell that transforms you into a dragon of appropriate form and with all the levels in that PrC.

Well, as the only real requirement is a stepping stone towards ascension, a straightforward application of Transform to become a true dragon, and then taking levels in the PrC, would do the job just fine.

[taltamir]

Well, as the only real requirement is a stepping stone towards ascension, a straightforward application of Transform to become a true dragon, and then taking levels in the PrC, would do the job just fine.

true dragons rather suck... sure its scary to face an ECL 20+ dragon at level 5... but any single classed human of equal ECL to the dragon (especially casters) are better...

now if you get to ignore the ECL and racial hit dice... and hopefully get some obscene like a great wyrm dragon... those are actually good. The real problem is the LA and racial hit dice though... both are just totally not worth it for being a dragon and just drag you down. And dragons are underpowered for their HD / LA at that.

its better to try to use transformation to transform yourself into something really powerful...

The four "ultimates" are the pit fiend, balor, solar, and I forgot.
So, how does become a balor sound to you? (as a stepping stone).

As for directly becoming a god; how about a suitably evil ritual? that is... feed on the souls and lifeforce of many many innocents. Each of your followers donates a spell of their highest level, which is actually cast as part of them ritually carving out the heart of an innocent, all at the same time.

Seeds: lemme get back to you on that... but I am thinking transformation, fortification and whatever seed is used for level draining (drain their souls).

EDIT:
OP, you can become a god with non epic casting:
Ice assassin a divinity 21+ god, have it raise you to its own divinity level.

Since your DM probably will not allow that... Ice assassin a lesser god, swap your bodies, use wish to "restore" the body of the ice assassin to your own body / body of choice instead of a body of ice. or just go ahead and transform the now divine you into a great wyrm / balor / whatever

[JoshuaZ]

Well, as the only real requirement is a stepping stone towards ascension, a straightforward application of Transform to become a true dragon, and then taking levels in the PrC, would do the job just fine.

I think the PrC is in the Draconomicon. Either that or in Dragon Magic.

[Jack_Simth]

true dragons rather suck... sure its scary to face an ECL 20+ dragon at level 5... but any single classed human of equal ECL to the dragon (especially casters) are better...

When using the Transform seed, you get exactly what you specify. Also, racial hit dice, ecl, and the like, are not even on the list of options. So you get the flight, immunities, breath weapon, ability scores, enhanced senses, and so on, without saddling yourself with the LA or RHD. Oh yes, and you maintain all of your actual class features, as well.

Oh, and you'll also want to use Ward to prevent Dispels, Disjunctions, and the like.

If you really want to be sure, you use the Life seed to create a new creature that has the ability to bestow the transformation as an Ex ability, and have it use that ability on you. It's a little over twice as expensive to make it happen, but you can be sure it's not going away anytime soon (what steps, exactly, do you use to dispel/suppress a Permanent Ex effect?).

I think the PrC is in the Draconomicon. Either that or in Dragon Magic.

Looked it up:
It's in The Book of How to be Eaten by a Dragon, page 90.

[Da'Shain]

I hadn't even thought about being dispelled, because I'd mistakenly read the duration as "Instantaneous" for the Transform seed. Yikes.

Hmm, so basically with the Transform seed you pick a creature, and then pay the +2 to Spellcraft DC for every Ex or Su ability you want to get from it when you're transformed? And you keep all of your class levels/abilities from before, feats, skills, etc? But I assume you lose the Ex and Su abilities of your previous form, which'll be sad; I'll miss the 27+class levels SR.

Is the Dragon Ascendant the class you guys are talking about? It's in the Draconomicon. Looks pretty sick, but it doesn't actually become a god despite what the fluff says, just many of the immunities and bonuses that deities get. What I'm looking for is a way to get Divine Ranks, which I have no idea how to go about.

The idea of creating a new creature with Life seed to transform me is interesting, but wouldn't that be pretty far beyond even my maximum buffed Spellcraft (I think I'll cap out around 45 once I have all my junk)? Although, with better than two hundred people contributing spell slots, it'll probably make life easier ...

[hamishspence]

Dragon ascendant at end of PRC progression becomes a quasi-deity with divine rank 0- and once its reached Divine Rank 0, its up to the DM whether more ranks can be gained.

Dragons of Faerun has a feat which enables clerics to select a dragon ascendant as their divine patron.

With enough clerical followers, and/or a big enough congregation, the DM can justify upgrading the dragon to demigod.

[taltamir]

Dragon ascendant at end of PRC progression becomes a quasi-deity with divine rank 0- and once its reached Divine Rank 0, its up to the DM whether more ranks can be gained.

which, I am pretty sure, just goes by charts of how many believers you have

[hamishspence]

Closest thing is in Deities and Demigods: page 25:

Rank 0: They may have some worshippers.

Rank 1-5: A demigod has anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand devoted mortal worshippers and may receive veneration or respect from many more.

Rank 6-10: Lesser deities have anywhere from a few thousand to tens of thousands of worshippers.

Rank 11-15: Intermediate deities have hundreds of thousands of mortal worshippers

Rank 16-20: Called greater deities, these entities may have millions of mortal worshippers.

So if a dragon ascendant manages to be worshipped by "a few hundred devoted mortal worshippers" they can gain divine ranks.

[2xMachina]

Leadership + Cohort with leadership + Cohort with leadership...

You're now an overdeity.

[hamishspence]

"Overdeities care nothing for mortal worshippers"

There is no upper limit listed for the number of worshippers a greater deity can have.

And even if you kill a fellow greater deity, it doesn't follow that you will gain ranks from that. Especially not once you hit divine rank 20.

Unless you actually have that divine rank 0, the fact that all your followers pray to you, doesn't affect you. The Lord of Blades in Eberron is worshipped, his followers gain spells- but he has no divine ranks- and is statted out in Five Nations.

[2xMachina]

Yeah, but the post up there says they get DR 0. And thus, add leadership cheese, and you've millions of worshipers.

I think overdeities are kind of gods (or king) to gods or something like that. Your cohort might be able to become divine too, and you'd qualify (you're worshiped by a god for gods sake)

(Though, I see nothing in Dragon Ascendant that gives Divine rank).

[hamishspence]

Page 92: Immortality (Ex) "A 12th level dragon ascendant is actually a quasi-deity, and can no longer die from natural causes"

"is actually a quasi-deity" is not quite "effectively has divine rank 0" but thats the impression I got- that a dragon ascendant with enough worshippers, would move to Demigod.

[Crow]

Everybody is missing the most important point brought up in Dieties and Demigods, and that is that the nature of Divine Power is up to the DM. All this talk about followers may not even be applicable in the OP's game.

Talk to your DM and see if divine power is infinite or finite, and also how one goes about gaining and increasing divine rank. Ask him if an epic spell would work, and ask him to give you some guidance as to what you need. Once you have this info from your DM, you can come up with a plan on your own, or come to the forum for advice.

Either way, until you get the specifics from your DM, you are basically just grinding gears for no reason. Just because some dude suggested it on a D&D forum doesn't mean that is how it's going to work in your DM's campaign.

[Thrawn4]

AFAIK, you just need a decent amount of worshippers in order to become a god. So you should think about a way to get them to worship you. How about an ability which lets you transfer some of your power to your followers/priests? With your power, they could really help people everywhere, and so those people would have a reason to appreciate your help. Or maybe a spell which allows you to communicate with all those who pray to you? Then you could give them directions or promise your help. The whole business might still take some time, so you should probably also look out for means of immortality.

[taltamir]

Yeah, but the post up there says they get DR 0. And thus, add leadership cheese, and you've millions of worshipers.

I think overdeities are kind of gods (or king) to gods or something like that. Your cohort might be able to become divine too, and you'd qualify (you're worshiped by a god for gods sake)

(Though, I see nothing in Dragon Ascendant that gives Divine rank).

supposedly, to become a deity you must have the approval of an overdeity.
The overdeity Ao forced the other deities to walk the world during the time of troubles and ended with a ruling that their power depends on how many worshipers they have (so that they will not simply ignore the mortals)

the epic handbooks and the deity handbook are incompatible. None of the deities have any epic feats or epic castings. And epic magic makes you significantly more powerful then any deity (if played straight)

[Jack_Simth]

I hadn't even thought about being dispelled, because I'd mistakenly read the duration as "Instantaneous" for the Transform seed. Yikes.

Hmm, so basically with the Transform seed you pick a creature, and then pay the +2 to Spellcraft DC for every Ex or Su ability you want to get from it when you're transformed? And you keep all of your class levels/abilities from before, feats, skills, etc? But I assume you lose the Ex and Su abilities of your previous form, which'll be sad; I'll miss the 27+class levels SR.

So pick a dragon that has enough SR to deal. Or make an epic Ward to follow-up.

Is the Dragon Ascendant the class you guys are talking about? It's in the Draconomicon. Looks pretty sick, but it doesn't actually become a god despite what the fluff says, just many of the immunities and bonuses that deities get. What I'm looking for is a way to get Divine Ranks, which I have no idea how to go about.

The capstone says it makes you a "quasi-diety" - which is the exact same term used for a rank-0 Deity.

The idea of creating a new creature with Life seed to transform me is interesting, but wouldn't that be pretty far beyond even my maximum buffed Spellcraft (I think I'll cap out around 45 once I have all my junk)? Although, with better than two hundred people contributing spell slots, it'll probably make life easier ...

So you don't start with the spell you want to cast. You start with a Permanent Summon of a spellcasting minion - a Plaetar, Couatl, or similar - and keep casting that until you've got enough minions to mitigate the costs away. If your DM is up for cheese once.

[taltamir]

but is it actually cheese if you slowly build it up? or do something drastically epic?