Help building a simple but powerful character [3.5 D&D] (Please help)

[Fortuna]

My little brother recently decided that he wants to play D&D. Now, my group is pretty lacking in powergaming and opti-fu, but I think that it would really help for him to be nice and powerful, just so that he feels that he's being helpful. He's 10 if that's important. He also wants to play a Rogue kind of character. Help soon please: I said I'd help him make a character tonight.

[deuxhero]

Horizon Tripper.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Level, point buy, books allowed, other party members?

[FlamingKobold]

Give him a sorcerer. A very blasty sorcerer. Then give him a ton of passive feats that make him more blasty. Not superpowerful, but there are a lot of feats that he doesnt have to think about that make a blaster caster more effective.

[IonDragon]

If he wants to play a Rogue style character and want's something simple, but moderately powerful a Rogue (Surprise!) would be perfect. As long as there's another melee character for him to flank with and get his sneak attack damage it's really easy.

[Fortuna]

Level 1, online material only, stat generation method is detailed below, other party members are: a wizard who is wise in the ways of opti-fu, and makes sure that he has big guns to pull; a sorceror who is not, but got convinced to pick good spells by the wizard; a paladin with no optimization, but no stuff-ups either; a druid with no optimization and no stuff-ups; a ranger whose feat was Improved Unarmed Strike, and who plans to continue in that kind of vein; and a spontaneous cloistered cleric, which is the only build that I have on hand.

Stats: each person gets twelve "points", and invests them in the stats. You then roll for each stat based on the investment: 0=3d6, 1=2d6+6, 2=1d6+12, and 3=1d3+15. You can save points up to boost stats on a 1-for-1 basis, with no stat getting a base above 18.

[Tyndmyr]

Stats: each person gets twelve "points", and invests them in the stats. You then roll for each stat based on the investment: 0=3d6, 1=2d6+6, 2=1d6+12, and 3=1d3+15. You can save points up to boost stats on a 1-for-1 basis, with no stat getting a base above 18.

Interesting.

Well, with a full caster, you'll want a three point roll on your casting stat. Probably at least a two point roll on dex and con. One point on everything else. This leaves you with two leftover points to buy on a 1 for 1 basis, assuring you of a natural 18 in your casting stat. If you roll higher than a 1 on that D3, boost dex or con, which will be a minimum of 14 if your luck is terrible. Probably higher.

It seems a reasonable stat generation method IMO.

If he wants a roguish character, point him in the direction of Complete Scoundrel, which shows how to make nearly any class properly roguish. Then, for race, have him take whisper gnome(It is online material, found here). Then, start taking levels in wizard. If he wants more rogue in his wizard, go the arcane trickster route. It's not a crazy build, by any means, but it's got decent power.

[Douglas]

What, exactly, does he want about the rogue? Sneakiness, agility, and stabbing people, or picking locks and disarming traps? If he doesn't care about the lock and trap related rogue skills, I'd suggest a Halfling Swordsage focused on Shadow Hand if not for the "online material only" thing. You can at least get all the maneuvers online, but the one feat I'd recommend and the Swordsage class features are only available in the book.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Hm, interesting stat gen. I'd recommend putting at least 1 in all stats. Rogues (and most skill monkeys) can deal with average stats, but super-low scores anywhere could cramp their style. I was going to recommend a Beguiler - with a big fixed list of spells known there's not much he can do to screw it up - but you already have two arcanists. Straight rogue might be simpler in this case anyway.

[Fortuna]

I have just confirmed that he does want the locks and traps angle. So you guys think a Rogue would work well? Any advice for race, feats etc. for a straight Rogue, or PrCs? Note that homebrew is allowed, if it is not entirely ridiculous.

Also, he would like to do something more than "I hit it from the other side from my buddy. Again." in combat. I'm not familiar with rogues, so I don't know if this will be an issue. That's what you guys are for

And another thing: he doesn't mind waiting for another day: I've told him that I'll go over this thread with him in 24 hours' time to pick out an idea, and then throw the build together.

[Tyndmyr]

I have just confirmed that he does want the locks and traps angle. So you guys think a Rogue would work well? Any advice for race, feats etc. for a straight Rogue, or PrCs? Note that homebrew is allowed, if it is not entirely ridiculous.

Also, he would like to do something more than "I hit it from the other side from my buddy. Again." in combat. I'm not familiar with rogues, so I don't know if this will be an issue. That's what you guys are for

And another thing: he doesn't mind waiting for another day: I've told him that I'll go over this thread with him in 24 hours' time to pick out an idea, and then throw the build together.

If ya'll allow Dungeonscape...Factotum? It's like a rogue, but with more versatility. They get a slow casting progression, the ability to occasionally emulate certain class traits, etc, but in general, they have a significant amount of rogue feel to them, and they do skillmonkey rather decently too.

In combat, it basically plays like a rogue with more options than "I sneak attack it again".

[dyslexicfaser]

That really is mostly what a rogue does in combat at low levels: flank and stab. At Rogue 10 he gets a cool trick like con damage or whatever, and after a few levels you can pump up Use Magic Device and start using wands: anything with a ranged attack roll lets him add his sneak attack damage, if I'm remembering correctly.

Or he could be a ninja; generally weaker than a rogue, but it gets some neat little tricks early by using his ki pool. 1-round invisibility and such.

EDIT: Ah yes, factotum is pretty excellent, can't fault that one.

[Soranar]

simple and powerful , hopefully sneaky...

Factotum, arcane casters and such sound a bit complicated

ToB too

but considering the group... he shouldn't do much (3 tier 1 classes!) but he'll probably do more than the paladin


Alright here goes

race: human
alignment: any

STATS (32pts buy example but I will use your system)
STR 4th spend 2pts (2d6+6)
DEX 2nd spend 3 pts (1d6+12)
CON 3rd spend 2 pts (2d6 +6)
INT 1rst spend 3 pts (1d6+12)
WIS dump (spend 0)
CHA dump (spend 0)

keep 2 pts to hopefully round up 18s in either INT or DEX

you probably shouldn't pump your DEX too high by leveling up since your maximum use is +6 with a mithral chain shirt and you can easily get a +4 stat item to bring it from say 18 to 22

high INT+ being a human makes you an effective skillmonkey (you can always take able learner level 1) besides you add your INT to your damage

the rest is up to flavor

you can switch trapsense to get half your sneak attack bonus on all creatures normally immune to it, I suggest you do

if you let him get flaws then add craven earlier

near perfect BAB, really good at flanking, sneak attack = to rogue of equal level and much better Hitpoints than a rogue

1 Rogue combat reflexes,combat expertise
2 Rogue bonus feat evasion
3 Rogue exotic weapon proficiency spiked chain
4 Swashbuckler
5 Swashbuckler
6 Swashbuckler Daring Outlaw
7 Swashbuckler
8 Swashbuckler
9 Swashbuckler sneak attack of opportunity
10 Swashbuckler
11 Swashbuckler
12 Swashbuckler improved trip
13 Swashbuckler
14 Swashbuckler
15 Swashbuckler improved feint
16 Swashbuckler
17 Swashbuckler
18 Swashbucklercraven
19 Swashbuckler
20 Swashbuckler

[Fortuna]

Perhaps I should clarify. Our group doesn't actually own any books: we work off the SRD and crystalkeep, and the odd spot of homebrew. So that limits our options quite a bit.

[dyslexicfaser]

Hm. Well then, rogue's your man.

A little further down the line, if you're going two-weapon fighting (and you should, as a rogue) consider the Weapon Style feats, they're on crystalkeep. Lightning Maces is a good pick (pick up a pair of keen light maces and the Improved Critical feat, and you get to go to town on people with an extra attack whenever you roll a 17-20) or High Sword Low Axe (sword 'em, axe 'em, trip, and stab 'em when they're down as a freebie).

[Lycanthromancer]

A level in rogue (go martial rogue - from UA in the SRD - for the fighter feat, rather than sneak attack), then the rest in shaper psion? Psionics is pretty easy if he's familiar with the MP systems in most RPGs, so long as he remembers that he can't spend more pp than his manifester level and can do basic subtraction. Shapers are great for utility, especially if he uses psionic minor creation and astral construct a lot. He can use rogue to be a little sneaky, and can go, say, whisper gnome to add to it considerably.

Psionics is available in the SRD, and there's a good range of nifty psionics PrCs (should he want one) in The Mind's Eye articles.

[Optimystik]

Spellthief is also available online, and will give your friend all the trapmonkeying he could want with a LOT more options in combat.

There's also tons of other classes and feats available for free online. Check here.

[Runestar]

PHB2 has the beguiler. I think a beginner might like the spontaneous casters like the warmage or beguiler since they don't have to agonize over what spells to choose or prepare. They simply choose whatever spell they want at that specific moment and cast it.

Downside is having access to so many spells simultaneously can be quite overwhelming, and illusion spells aren't the easiest to master.

[Sir Giacomo]

OK, here's an idea for a fairly simple but effective human rogue (a bit different from Soranar's; based on just core rules as per SRD, to keep it as simple as possible - you may for instance wish to add flaws for more feats, but that is not necessary).

The build is inspired by Gray Mouser, a typical example for a rogue - like Conan is for barbarians. Your little brother may just read a Fritz Leiber story to get the "feel" of how this rogue could work.

Take 3 stats with 1d3+15; (STR, DEX and CHR - lowest roll to STR), 1 with 1d6+12 (INT), 1 with 2d6+6 (CON) and 1 with 3d6 (WIS).

1)For combat, take the feats two-weapon fighting (level 1) and quickdraw (human bonus).
This effectively means that whenever the rogue wins initiative (and/or in a surprise round), he catches opponents flat-footed, draws weapons as a free action and adds sneak damage. With two shortswords (or Mouser style rapier and dagger), this could mean up to three attacks doing 2d6 damage (plus STR, or half STR off-hand) each before an opponent can react (at range, he could do it with thrown daggers - lateron with more money for coolness with two quickdrawn hand crossbows).
The melee attack bonus with STR likely is only +1 for each attack (DEX for range a bit higher), but remember that opponents lose their DEX bonus to AC when flat-footed, so the chances to hit once or twice are quite good.
This opportunity to do sneak damage comes ontop of the more often used methods like flanking. It is also quite simple.

Rogue-style, of course, continued melee combat should be avoided (likely only 7/8ish hp, at least AC is around 16 with leather armour, by 2nd level with tumble 5 ranks and fighting defensively as well as a masterwork studded leather armour it could be 20). But there are alreay quite some good frontliners with druid, paladin and ranger in your group.

When the rogue rises in level, he could focus more on DEX and take weapon finesse and also take improved initiative.

2) For skills (probably around 11 skill pts/lvl due to class, INT and human bonus), I'd recommend to max the following 11 skills (4 ranks each):
spot, listen, move silently, hide (the "stealth skills" for scouting)
open locks, disable device, sleight of hand, search (the "thief skills")
gather information, bluff (the "social skills"). (later add diplomacy and sense motive 5 ranks for a synergy bonus to diplomacy).
Finally, max tumble (for enhancing combat/avoiding AoOs, get 5 ranks jump for synergy bonus later). Climb should be fine with just the STR score and a climbing kit - but that is up for taste.

With more money available, you may consider making available masterwork tools for each of the skills (50gp each except when not explicitly stated otherwise, as for the masterwork thieves' tools).

Again, when rising in level, and when your little brother is more interested in magic, the rogue may consider to delve more into magical knowledge and related skills (possibly aiming at a wizard apprenticeship with arcane trickster prestige class eventually).
Good skills here would be: decipher script, UMD, spellcraft/knowledge arcane (cross-class or taken as wizard).

Or, the rogue may later pursue a more melee-oriented career and multiclass into fighter.

Hope that helps.

- Giacomo

[Person_Man]

I often use a variant for Sneak Attack called Backstab. Full Sneak Attack damage whenever you Flank, but nothing is immune, and being denied Dex doesn't trigger it. I think it would work very well for a 10 year old.

Also, you might want to consolidate Skills. Pathfinder did a pretty good job.

[Fortuna]

Thanks for all of the help. I have made a start on the character sheet, using Sir_Giacomo's idea (it appealed to him once I explained it). One problem: Quick Draw requires BAB +1, which he doesn't get yet: I gave him two-weapon defense instead. Was that stupid?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Thanks for all of the help. I have made a start on the character sheet, using Sir_Giacomo's idea (it appealed to him once I explained it). One problem: Quick Draw requires BAB +1, which he doesn't get yet:

Giacomo is correct; it is you who is wrong!

I gave him two-weapon defense instead. Was that stupid?

Two Weapon Defense is pointless.

[Fortuna]

So what do I give him instead?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I recommend Craven.

[IonDragon]

Two Weapon Fighting if you don't have it already
And Combat Reflexes is a solid option, since he's going to be in the thick of things most of the time and will have a high Dex.

[Fortuna]

He has TWF. Combat Reflexes sounds like a good idea. What is Craven?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

You will want a 2 level dip in Thug Fighter for the extra feats and point of BaB, probably.

[Vizzerdrix]

Unearthed Arcana Generic classes are simple and easy. He can pick what skills he'd think would be most fun and be able to build in whatever style of play he enjoyed the most without all the multiclassing and dips.

[Sir Giacomo]

Ah, sorry I forgot about the +1 BAB for quickdraw.
Your brother'll have to wait until level 3 then.
I'd recommend Improved Initiative now (to inrease the chance to go first and thus catch the opponent flat-footed).

You'll have to forgive Giacomo for the rules mistake.

That was a completely unnecessary comment.

- Giacomo

[Aldizog]

Are you the DM? If so, you can design adventures such that rogue abilities are really useful and allow for varied options besides "I flank and sneak attack."

Sleight of Hand can be extremely useful in combat, pickpocketing the enemy's holy symbol, spell component pouch, wand, backup weapon, and so on. If I were ten years old and asked to play a sneaky thief, this would probably match what I wanted better than the TWF Craven Sneak Attack Cuisinart. And maybe a battle in some environment that requires Balance or Climb checks.

As it's level 1 and SRD-only, Improved Initiative or Combat Reflexes could be fine. Elf is not a bad choice for rogues, in fact I think it's quite good for novice players, because of the auto-search ability and the skill bonuses. Lets the party move faster through dungeons, and the player doesn't have to worry about forgetting to mention he's looking for secret doors. Tallfellow halfing also gets the auto-search ability, and that's also SRD.

Edit: and the Generic Classes also sound like a good and simple idea.