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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default 4(e) Mage's hand

    The mage hand ability is not clear when it comes to line of sight, or if line of sight is needed... it just says you can pick up/hold an adjacent object up to 20lbs...

    In the example im trying to clarify a door was shut and blocked by a chair... the mage used mage hand to move the chair. now if the mage can look through the keyhole then fine and dandy. but if there is no line of sight, does the adjacent rule out weigh LoS?

    If so, the ability seems pretty powerful to me. I would say LoS is needed, for one the PC is not going to know there is a chair blocking the door, so how would he know to remove it?

    Anyway before I start ranting, please let me know your thoughts. thank you.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: 4(e) Mage's hand

    I can't remember how this works but I believe you do need line of sight, regardless...or possibly line of effect even.

    I can't remember the definition for line of effect though, I think it's pretty similar to line of sight.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    dsmiles's Avatar

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    Default Re: 4(e) Mage's hand

    I'm fairly certain that you have to have line of effect (or line of sight at a minimum) to the area where you cast a spell.

    And before anyone else asks:

    What's the sound of one mage hand clapping?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Doctor
    People assume that time is a strict progression of cause-to-effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly... time-y wimey... stuff.
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  4. - Top - End - #4
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: 4(e) Mage's hand

    The mage hand must first be conjured within a square. And to target a square, you must have Line of Effect (page 273) to it.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: 4(e) Mage's hand

    Headshot! thanks guys

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: 4(e) Mage's hand

    Now: Question of my own.

    You can move the mage hand 5 squares as a move action and it doesn't specify a limit on distance.

    What's the limit on line of effect?

    I've had my wizard move his mage hand long distances as long as he could see it.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: 4(e) Mage's hand

    Hm. The only limit I can find (PHB 59) states that zones and conjurations must remain within range. I don't see any text requiring them to remain within line of effect. That said, given what "line of effect" means it would be quite reasonable for the DM to require it.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

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  8. - Top - End - #8
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: 4(e) Mage's hand

    I was fine with it, I just want to make sure that I'm playing by the book (you know, letting things work as they're intended, avoids confusing houseruleshenanigans later if that player moves to other campaigns)

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    dsmiles's Avatar

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    Default Re: 4(e) Mage's hand

    I still want to know:

    What's the sound of one mage hand clapping?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Doctor
    People assume that time is a strict progression of cause-to-effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly... time-y wimey... stuff.
    Awesomesauce Doctor WhOotS-atar by Ceika!

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: 4(e) Mage's hand

    Quote Originally Posted by dsmiles View Post
    I still want to know:

    What's the sound of one mage hand clapping?
    "Cl."

    The other hand makes the "ap".
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
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  11. - Top - End - #11
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: 4(e) Mage's hand

    Depends on the DM.

    If you pushed me to hard it would be the sound of the universe imploding as the hand tries to alter reality to perform the impossible task.

    Then the pop when everything returns to normal like nothing happened.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: 4(e) Mage's hand

    That is what i was thinking... the rules are pretty vague actually and yes the DM can always make the final call.

    But if the hand has already been summoned, does it need LoS/LoE... if you cant see something that does not mean its not adjacent to you! but that interpretation makes the power very strong IMO.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Titan in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: 4(e) Mage's hand

    Quote Originally Posted by sobebop View Post
    If so, the ability seems pretty powerful to me. I would say LoS is needed, for one the PC is not going to know there is a chair blocking the door, so how would he know to remove it?
    Not only does the door block Line of Sight, it also blocks Line of Effect, regardless of how the power is stated. If you were to somehow conjure the hand on the other side of the door, but still lack Line of Sight to the chair, you will require some means of finding the chair to move it. All told, if the lack of Line of Effect is resolved, I would require a Minor action (same as a Perception check) to find the chair, and then the same action normally required to remove the chair to actually move it.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: 4(e) Mage's hand

    Quote Originally Posted by dsmiles View Post
    I still want to know:

    What's the sound of one mage hand clapping?
    It wouldn't happen. Clapping is not on the list of actions a mage hand can perform.
    Check out a bunch of stuff I wrote for my campaign world of Oz.

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  15. - Top - End - #15
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: 4(e) Mage's hand

    IDK if mage hands make any noise at all!! I suspect they are quiet, no? The question is, if a mage hand falls in the woods, does it make a sound? again, id say no. ;P

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: 4(e) Mage's hand

    I'm AFB, but I believe you need to maintain LoE to your conjurations each round, or they vanish. The rules would be in the conjurations clarification in PHBII.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: 4(e) Mage's hand

    Last time I checked, there was debate over whether mage hand could even move vertically. Sorry Halfling, that can of pringles will be forever out of your reach.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Zombie

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    Default Re: 4(e) Mage's hand

    Quote Originally Posted by dsmiles View Post
    I still want to know:

    What's the sound of one mage hand clapping?
    Whatever your casting of ghost sound makes it sound like.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: 4(e) Mage's hand

    A DM friend of mine, and I, interpret Mage hand's distance limitations according to the range given on the power itself: 5 (squares). You conjure the hand within 5 squares of you, and it can only travel up to 5 squares away from you.

    Just to clarify a related point:

    -- Line of sight has to do with, what you can see, and how far you can see.

    You can't see through solid walls, and others can have either partial or total concealment because of things like trees, big rocks, certain powers.

    -- Line of effect has to do with, where you can direct attacks, and to whom you can direct attacks (i.e. spells, powers, etc).

    Imagine that a monster is hiding just around a corner. Even without seeing the monster, you're allowed to cast a blast attack (for instance) into whatever area you want, as long as you stay within the attack's range.

    For LOS, I assume that a character can see off into the distance indefinitely, up until their eyes come upon an obstruction.

    For LOE, I depend on a power's range to let me know how far out the power has an effect.

    An interesting flip in the LOE, LOS rules occurs with the Eladrin racial power Fey Step, which allows you to teleport up to 5 squares away. This 5 square distance is only determined in the Effect description. Fey Step doesn't have a "Range: 5" marker. So one might argue that the power has an infinite LOE. Though it's not labeled as "range", the power does have one, and it is "Personal". Doesn't this mean that Fey Step is useless because it has no LOE beyond the square the character stands in?

    Luckily the specific teleportation rules suggest that you focus on LOS, instead of LOE, to determine teleportation effects.
    Last edited by DabblerWizard; 2010-01-12 at 10:58 PM.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Titan in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: 4(e) Mage's hand

    Quote Originally Posted by DabblerWizard View Post
    Luckily the specific teleportation rules suggest that you focus on LOS, instead of LOE, to determine teleportation effects.
    No, teleportation rules outright state that you do not need Line of Effect to the target so long as you can see it. That's the point of teleportation. Some teleportation powers waive even that requirement, allowing you to jump somewhere you can't even see.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Mystic Muse's Avatar

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    Default Re: 4(e) Mage's hand

    Actually, Rat from the comic "pearls before swine" knows Exactly what the sound of one hand clapping sounds like.
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  22. - Top - End - #22
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: 4(e) Mage's hand

    Quote Originally Posted by DabblerWizard View Post
    An interesting flip in the LOE, LOS rules occurs with the Eladrin racial power Fey Step, which allows you to teleport up to 5 squares away. This 5 square distance is only determined in the Effect description. Fey Step doesn't have a "Range: 5" marker. So one might argue that the power has an infinite LOE.
    That's not what LOE means. Lines are by definition infinite. Fey Step clearly specifies that you must teleport to a spot up to five squares away, so there's nothing infinite about that.

    Powers don't have LOE, characters have LOE. And for most but not all powers, the character who uses it must have LOE to its target.

    Luckily the specific teleportation rules suggest that you focus on LOS, instead of LOE, to determine teleportation effects.
    Incorrect. Teleportation explicitly requires LOS, not LOE. This means that yes, you can teleport through a wall of force.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
    Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!

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