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Thread: 4(e) Mage's hand
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2010-01-12, 10:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
4(e) Mage's hand
The mage hand ability is not clear when it comes to line of sight, or if line of sight is needed... it just says you can pick up/hold an adjacent object up to 20lbs...
In the example im trying to clarify a door was shut and blocked by a chair... the mage used mage hand to move the chair. now if the mage can look through the keyhole then fine and dandy. but if there is no line of sight, does the adjacent rule out weigh LoS?
If so, the ability seems pretty powerful to me. I would say LoS is needed, for one the PC is not going to know there is a chair blocking the door, so how would he know to remove it?
Anyway before I start ranting, please let me know your thoughts. thank you.
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2010-01-12, 10:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
Re: 4(e) Mage's hand
I can't remember how this works but I believe you do need line of sight, regardless...or possibly line of effect even.
I can't remember the definition for line of effect though, I think it's pretty similar to line of sight.
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2010-01-12, 10:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4(e) Mage's hand
I'm fairly certain that you have to have line of effect (or line of sight at a minimum) to the area where you cast a spell.
And before anyone else asks:
What's the sound of one mage hand clapping?Originally Posted by The Doctor
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2010-01-12, 10:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4(e) Mage's hand
The mage hand must first be conjured within a square. And to target a square, you must have Line of Effect (page 273) to it.
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2010-01-12, 10:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
Re: 4(e) Mage's hand
Headshot! thanks guys
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2010-01-12, 11:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
Re: 4(e) Mage's hand
Now: Question of my own.
You can move the mage hand 5 squares as a move action and it doesn't specify a limit on distance.
What's the limit on line of effect?
I've had my wizard move his mage hand long distances as long as he could see it.
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2010-01-12, 11:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
Re: 4(e) Mage's hand
Hm. The only limit I can find (PHB 59) states that zones and conjurations must remain within range. I don't see any text requiring them to remain within line of effect. That said, given what "line of effect" means it would be quite reasonable for the DM to require it.
Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!
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2010-01-12, 11:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
Re: 4(e) Mage's hand
I was fine with it, I just want to make sure that I'm playing by the book (you know, letting things work as they're intended, avoids confusing houseruleshenanigans later if that player moves to other campaigns)
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2010-01-12, 11:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4(e) Mage's hand
I still want to know:
What's the sound of one mage hand clapping?Originally Posted by The Doctor
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2010-01-12, 11:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!
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2010-01-12, 11:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
Re: 4(e) Mage's hand
Depends on the DM.
If you pushed me to hard it would be the sound of the universe imploding as the hand tries to alter reality to perform the impossible task.
Then the pop when everything returns to normal like nothing happened.
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2010-01-12, 11:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
Re: 4(e) Mage's hand
That is what i was thinking... the rules are pretty vague actually and yes the DM can always make the final call.
But if the hand has already been summoned, does it need LoS/LoE... if you cant see something that does not mean its not adjacent to you! but that interpretation makes the power very strong IMO.
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2010-01-12, 11:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2007
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Re: 4(e) Mage's hand
Not only does the door block Line of Sight, it also blocks Line of Effect, regardless of how the power is stated. If you were to somehow conjure the hand on the other side of the door, but still lack Line of Sight to the chair, you will require some means of finding the chair to move it. All told, if the lack of Line of Effect is resolved, I would require a Minor action (same as a Perception check) to find the chair, and then the same action normally required to remove the chair to actually move it.
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2010-01-12, 12:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4(e) Mage's hand
Check out a bunch of stuff I wrote for my campaign world of Oz.
SpoilerI am the Burley, formerly known as Burley Warlock. I got my name changed. Please remember me...
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2010-01-12, 12:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
Re: 4(e) Mage's hand
IDK if mage hands make any noise at all!! I suspect they are quiet, no? The question is, if a mage hand falls in the woods, does it make a sound? again, id say no. ;P
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2010-01-12, 12:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4(e) Mage's hand
I'm AFB, but I believe you need to maintain LoE to your conjurations each round, or they vanish. The rules would be in the conjurations clarification in PHBII.
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2010-01-12, 12:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2008
Re: 4(e) Mage's hand
Last time I checked, there was debate over whether mage hand could even move vertically. Sorry Halfling, that can of pringles will be forever out of your reach.
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2010-01-12, 01:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-01-12, 10:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
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Re: 4(e) Mage's hand
A DM friend of mine, and I, interpret Mage hand's distance limitations according to the range given on the power itself: 5 (squares). You conjure the hand within 5 squares of you, and it can only travel up to 5 squares away from you.
Just to clarify a related point:
-- Line of sight has to do with, what you can see, and how far you can see.
You can't see through solid walls, and others can have either partial or total concealment because of things like trees, big rocks, certain powers.
-- Line of effect has to do with, where you can direct attacks, and to whom you can direct attacks (i.e. spells, powers, etc).
Imagine that a monster is hiding just around a corner. Even without seeing the monster, you're allowed to cast a blast attack (for instance) into whatever area you want, as long as you stay within the attack's range.
For LOS, I assume that a character can see off into the distance indefinitely, up until their eyes come upon an obstruction.
For LOE, I depend on a power's range to let me know how far out the power has an effect.
An interesting flip in the LOE, LOS rules occurs with the Eladrin racial power Fey Step, which allows you to teleport up to 5 squares away. This 5 square distance is only determined in the Effect description. Fey Step doesn't have a "Range: 5" marker. So one might argue that the power has an infinite LOE. Though it's not labeled as "range", the power does have one, and it is "Personal". Doesn't this mean that Fey Step is useless because it has no LOE beyond the square the character stands in?
Luckily the specific teleportation rules suggest that you focus on LOS, instead of LOE, to determine teleportation effects.Last edited by DabblerWizard; 2010-01-12 at 10:58 PM.
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2010-01-12, 11:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2007
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Re: 4(e) Mage's hand
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2010-01-12, 11:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
Re: 4(e) Mage's hand
Actually, Rat from the comic "pearls before swine" knows Exactly what the sound of one hand clapping sounds like.
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2010-01-13, 03:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
Re: 4(e) Mage's hand
That's not what LOE means. Lines are by definition infinite. Fey Step clearly specifies that you must teleport to a spot up to five squares away, so there's nothing infinite about that.
Powers don't have LOE, characters have LOE. And for most but not all powers, the character who uses it must have LOE to its target.
Luckily the specific teleportation rules suggest that you focus on LOS, instead of LOE, to determine teleportation effects.Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!