[3.5/Pathfinder] Absurdly High Save DCs?

[subject42]

Technically, it's a reflex save for all of it. As a level 1 spell, this should not be hard to pass. Thus, it's a pretty slow, suboptimal way to kill someone without the crippling aspect of fell drain.

The quoted text below got me thinking, how many (stacking) methods exist in 3.5 or Pathfinder to raise Save DCs for spells? How hard would it be to turn any spell with a save from "Save or suck" to "Save or Die" and then "Just Die"?

Things I know of right now:

• Wizard School Specialization
• Spell Focus
• Greater Spell Focus
• Heighten Spell Metamagic
• A good casting stat score

[Boci]

Lowering the opponents save is also an option. Fell frighten ray of sickness (using black moil to do damage) makes your opponent shaken and sickened for a total of -4 to saves. No save against the spell, just a ranged attack roll required. Its a 4th level spell slot. Enervate also works.

[Tyndmyr]

Technically, Sanctum Spell could change DC, by changing level of spell.

Seriously though, why bother with optimizing for high save DCs when you can just use a no-save option?

In the quoted instance, a persisted thunderhead, using a no-save DOT like PW: Pain is much more effective. Stacking metamagics otherwise becomes very feat intensive, making your character sort of a one trick wonder.

Or just use Fell Drain. They'll fail the save eventually, and once they do so, stacking negative levels will result in increasing amounts of failed saves, escalating in speed of level drain until death.

[Person_Man]

There are dozens of ways to debuff enemies. Dexterity in particular is easy to debuff. If your enemies are passing their Save DCs on a regular basis, you're just not trying.

[Rasman]

in my limited experience, and partying with a Wizard that's focusing on making his Saves untouchable, it's almost always easier to Debuff your enemy

draining Con and Negative levels makes saves, especially fort, MUCH lower for when he uses his "pretty rainbow patterns"

what? that's a direct quote from the Frost Giant he walked off a cliff, honest...

[Akal Saris]

Well, that's true that it's easier to debuff opponents, but if you can spend 1 action to make the enemy fail a very high DC check, instead of 1 action to set up the debuff and a second to make him fail a mid-high DC check, then you're ahead in the action economy.

This is an obvious one, but raising your int (or primary casting stat) also raises the DCs. Starting as old, playing a gnome illusionist, etc. can also squeeze a few points in.

[subject42]

Seriously though, why bother with optimizing for high save DCs when you can just use a no-save option?

Seriously though, why would anyone want to climb Mount Everest?

This isn't the kind of thing that I would ever use, but it piqued my curiosity at a theoretical level.

[Tyndmyr]

There are comparatively few ways to boost save DCs outside of the well known ones like boosting casting stat, spell focus, etc, and most of those that do exist are limited, often by school.

Thus, save DC boosting is not terribly effective.

If you want an absolute max without, it's probably something like a bard casting Suggestion or some such. In 3.5, not pathfinder. If you find it interesting, go nuts with figuring out exactly how high you can boost it, but it's not going to have any practical application.