Telepathy/Mindsight

[Signmaker]

Mindsight is listed to operate within the range of your Telepathy, but nowhere does it state that it is dependent on your Telepathy being in effect. Which leads to this question:

Does blocking Telepathy necessarily block Mindsight?

One can make the argument that Mindsight is detached from Telepathy, and is thus not affected. One can also make the argument that the Telepathy range dictates Mindsight range, therefore by extension areas of no-Telepathy are areas of no-Mindsight.

Thoughts, community?

[deuxhero]

If it isn't in effect its range is 0 and if it is blocked that is lowering its range.

[Signmaker]

If it isn't in effect its range is 0 and if it is blocked that is lowering its range.

Not necessarily. Let's say you have a spherical zone that is your telepathy range, and another spherical zone that is some sort of telepathy-blocking ward. The intersection of the two zones does not reduce the total range of the telepathy, but rather removes that particular volume from your detection.

Unless, of course, that's what you meant, in which case you comply with argument 2.

[deuxhero]

Yep, if something (lead?) is blocking your telepathy, it blocks your mindsights.

[The Glyphstone]

It's not like there's a whole lot of other ways to stop Mindsight anyways, so sure, why not?

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm of the mind that telepathy block= Mindsight block. BUT! How many ways are there to block telepathy by RAW? The innate telepathy ability some creatures have is really hard to avoid IIRC.

[Signmaker]

I'm of the mind that telepathy block= Mindsight block. BUT! How many ways are there to block telepathy by RAW? The innate telepathy ability some creatures have is really hard to avoid IIRC.

Telepathy Block from BoED, Telepathic Static from Fiendish Codex II (As part of a PrC).

They're limited in number, but nevertheless out there. I'm sure deeper book perusal will produce more results.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'm of the mind that telepathy block= Mindsight block. BUT! How many ways are there to block telepathy by RAW? The innate telepathy ability some creatures have is really hard to avoid IIRC.

Telepathy is a mind-affecting ability. Mind Blank should do the trick nicely.

[Signmaker]

Telepathy is a mind-affecting ability. Mind Blank should do the trick nicely.

I'd appreciate a cite for that, because it technically doesn't affect the mind, only communicate with it. Additionally, the Telepathy ability makes no reference to what you say.

[olentu]

Assuming I am remembering how the mindsight feat is worded then it really depends on how one rules what the range on a characters telepathy ability. From what I can recall I would say that anything within the range of the telepathy ability is detected if applicable. Applicable being as I recall non-mindless. However I would need to review the feat's specific wording to give a more definite answer.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'd appreciate a cite for that, because it technically doesn't affect the mind, only communicate with it. Additionally, the Telepathy ability makes no reference to what you say.

From the SRD of Mind Blank:

The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts.

Boldface for clarification.

Telepathy reads thoughts. Mind blank stops it. No reading mind, no detecting through Mindsight.

[Signmaker]

Telepathy reads thoughts. Mind blank stops it. No reading mind, no detecting through Mindsight.

Only if you consider Telepathy a device, as it isn't a spell.

Is it?

[olentu]

From the SRD of Mind Blank:



Boldface for clarification.

Telepathy reads thoughts. Mind blank stops it. No reading mind, no detecting through Mindsight.

The problem possibly being that one does not necessarally need to have any ability to effect the creature with the telepathy ability to locate them with mindsight. Of course not having the feat text in front of me this may or may not be the case.

[Tokiko Mima]

Only if you consider Telepathy a device, as it isn't a spell.

Is it?

It's a supernatural special ability. I'm positive it's blocked by AMF, but Mind Blank is more problematic.

The problem possibly being that one does not necessarally need to have any ability to effect the creature with the telepathy ability to locate them with mindsight. Of course not having the feat text in front of me this may or may not be the case.

It is.

A creature that has this feat can detect and pinpoint beings that are not mindless (anything with an Intelligence score of 1 or higher) within range of it's telepathy.

So you don't even need to use telepathy, you're automatically detected if you're in the feat users range. Using telepathy requires a standard action, so you naturally wouldn't have it active all the time.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Only if you consider Telepathy a device, as it isn't a spell.

Is it?

Depends on how you get it. As a Spell-Like Ability or a Supernatural ability, then yes it is, and yes it is blocked. It gets trickier if you somehow get it as an Extraordinary ability.

[lord_khaine]

So you don't even need to use telepathy, you're automatically detected if you're in the feat users range. Using telepathy requires a standard action, so you naturally wouldn't have it active all the time.

Thats a interesting rule regarding then standard action, where did you find it?

[olentu]

Thats a interesting rule regarding then standard action, where did you find it?

Presumably it comes from the section that says, as I recall, supernatural abilities take a standard action to use by default if no other action is specified.

[Keld Denar]

Thats not all inclusive though, otherwise DR/magic or DR/Evil would require a standard action to activate. Except it doesn't, its always active unless you lower it. Same with Telepathy. Its always on, unless you turn it off.

[olentu]

Thats not all inclusive though, otherwise DR/magic or DR/Evil would require a standard action to activate. Except it doesn't, its always active unless you lower it. Same with Telepathy. Its always on, unless you turn it off.

I do not see why it would not be. Though as I am just going off memory I would have to reread for specifics.

[Kelb_Panthera]

AFAIK telepathy isn't mind affecting. It's arguably not even a means of mind reading. I've always thought of it more as you project your thoughts to the other guy and if he wants to he can project his back, more like a psychic mouth and ears, than anything else. That is to say a psychic mouth and ears that are not actually physical organs.

it's hard to type psychic and physic close together.

[unre9istered]

Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it.

If mind blank blocks all attempts to gather information about its target even upto wish and miracle, I'm pretty sure it can block a piddly feat (though this would be a house ruling as feats are not mentioned by the spell).

[Kelb_Panthera]

I guess mindblank calls for a houserule on this one. On the one hand since telepathy doesn't affect the mind or gather information, one could argue it gets past mind blank. On the other hand if telepathy does at some level touch the mind. If it's blocked by mindblank it would necessitate some sort of verbal or visual comunication between mindblanked characters that would otherwise use telepathy.

[unre9istered]

Given the name of the spell, I'd house rule that mindblank blocks the sending of telepathic messages but not the recieving.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Given the name of the spell, I'd house rule that mindblank blocks the sending of telepathic messages but not the recieving.

Blocks the sending of telepathic messages by the telapathic creature? or the non telepathic creature? and which one has the mindblank?

[appending_doom]

If mind blank blocks all attempts to gather information about its target even upto wish and miracle, I'm pretty sure it can block a piddly feat (though this would be a house ruling as feats are not mentioned by the spell).

I agree with this. I'm still undecided about telepathy, but given that Mindsight gathers information about a creature (its location -- something discern location can't do; its creature type, and its Intelligence score, IIRC), mind blank blocks it.

[unre9istered]

Blocks the sending of telepathic messages by the telapathic creature? or the non telepathic creature? and which one has the mindblank?

A telepathic creature could not send messages under a mindblank.
A telepathic creature can not recieve messages from a creature under a mindblank.

[FishAreWet]

A telepathic creature could not send messages under a mindblank.
A telepathic creature can not recieve messages from a creature under a mindblank.

Why though? It's not mind affecting. It doesn't say that anywhere. And Telepathy doesn't read thoughts, it expresses thoughts. Telepathy is one way. I understand the logic behind Mind Blank blocking it, but that's just not RAW. Telepathy isn't mind-affecting.

Mindless creatures are 'immune' to Telepathy. This is mentioned repeatedly in Lords of Madness. Keep in mind that Immune to Mind-Affects and Int - are very different.

And Telepathy Block only stop telepathic communication, therefore not stopping Mindsight, which is not a type of communication. Telepathic Static, however, blocks Telepathy as a whole, which should stop Mindsight.

[The Glyphstone]

And as noted in the last thread on this topic, there exist a number of intelligent undead and a few intelligent constructs with innate telepathy, both of which are also by default immune to mind-affecting effects due to their creature type. If immunity to mind-affecting blocks telepathy, then all of those creatures now have a useless ability (one of them, the Brain in a Jar, is completely hosed, as it cannot speak non-telepathically at all to give orders to the undead it could normally Rebuke/Command, who would not be able to recieve them either). This would support the fact that Telepathy is not mind-affecting.

[2xMachina]

Telepathy can read/project thoughts.

Mindblank means you have no surface thoughts (but can still think). Mindblanked creatures can use telepathy, but cannot be read (since there is no thoughts to be read).

So, if A is mindblanked, you cannot read A, but A can read you. You can project to A, and A can project to you.

However, I also think mind sight is the ability to see minds, empty or otherwise. It's like seeing a cup. Mindblank empties the cup, but the cup is still there, thus can still be seen.

That's how I see it.

(Mindblank is kinda weird... I mean, I can kind of emulate a blank mind, but a blank mind and think at the same time is something I don't understand)

[The Glyphstone]

Indeed. IMO, it's a lesser offspring of Sarrukh Syndrome - a feat printed in a monster-related supplement with a requirement that is typically exclusive to monsters, so they didn't really think about players getting a hold of it. Particularly how they printed the player-beneficial Darkstalker feat in the same book and conspciously didn't list Mindsight as one of the things it foils. Somehow, the existence of a full-casting PrC with low entry requirements and a large Telepathy range at 1st level escaped them.