[3e] Cleric prestige classes - summoner advice sought

[elberon]

Hi there,

I have a cleric who's dice have spoken, he can not hit anything and I do mean anything. Given the choice he'll drop his weapons as soon as anything turns up (I've been rolling lots of ones for initiative and to hits)
My summoned monsters though, well they have been quite devastating so far so I have decided to follow where the dice have indicated and looking to 'specialise' in summoning. What would be the best way ahead (I can't see anything coming up that would cause him stop being a a cleric) He's NG and pretty average stats lowest 11 highest 14 and only level 2.
This is the first 3.5e game of dnd (I know where have I been) so do not have a lot of books or experience so looking for some pointers. I've seen Contemplative but will need a while before I can get there. Is there any fitting cleric prestige classes (or as least will allow for continuing cleric levels??) that will turn my cleric into a summoner-o-doom?

Many thanks

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Malconvoker, Complete Scoundrel. Basically, you trick Evil outsiders into fighting for the forces of good. Very flavorful, you only lose 1 level of spellcasting, and has great abilities. There are very few other summon-focused PrCs.

[Draz74]

Thaumaturgist is of course an option. It's not super-powerful, but it's decent.

[Crow]

Thaumaturgist is of course an option. It's not super-powerful, but it's decent.

Some of it's abilities are actually quite useful. Certainly a good PrC if you want to be summoning-focused.

[Thespianus]

Thaumaturgist is of course an option. It's not super-powerful, but it's decent.

It seems the OP is level 2, so it might be a while until he can cast Lesser Planar Ally (level 4 spell) which is a requirement for Thaumaturgist.

At level 2, there's not a whole lot more you can do to get better at summoning, and most feats that boost Summoning (such as Augment Summoning) require Spell Focus(Conjuration), which isn't much fun to take.

Elberon: What Cleric domains do you have? What level 1 Feat(s) did you take? It might help us to help you. :)

Also, there's the Summoning Handbook.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Summon Elemental reserve feat?

[Vaynor]

Thaumaturgist is of course an option. It's not super-powerful, but it's decent.

Thaumaturgist is a lot of fun once you're high enough for it, not too powerful but it's decent.

[Thespianus]

Summon Elemental reserve feat?

Lots of fun, but also requires 4th level spells, ie level 7 Cleric.

I'm guessing the path to being a decent summoner starts with Spell Focus(Conjuration). From there, you can go with Augment Summoning and Cloudy Conjuration. At level 9, you can take Summon Elemental.

Sucks to be a feat-starved Cleric in this case, especially when the 1st level feat(s) might be "wasted" on non-summoning stuff.

[Eldariel]

As mentioned, Malconvoker is nice as is Thaumaturgist. Actually, I'm fond of Malconvoker/Thaumaturgist. Finish Malcon, then enter Thaumaturgist (maybe dipping it for some slight bonuses mid-Malcon). Very solid combination and gives you access to Planar Binding-line and great bonuses to them, Planar Ally and Summons.

[Gnorman]

A hypothetical build would be Cleric 5 / Malconvoker 9 / Thaumaturgist 5 / Whatever 1. But the last four levels of Malconvoker are heavily based on Planar Binding, and so some consider them unnecessary.

Contemplative is a good idea to pick up the Summoning domain if you haven't already, because +2 CL on all summoning spells is nothing to sneeze at - longer lasting monsters is always a good thing. Trickery is a great domain too, mainly for Bluff being a class skill.

I also recommend looking into Sacred Exorcist (thematically useful against evil outsiders) or Church Inquisitor (early entry).

[elberon]

Thanks for everyones help with this

Elberon: What Cleric domains do you have? What level 1 Feat(s) did you take? It might help us to help you. :)

Well my original take was a evangelical uptight pretty straight forward Cleric (but the dice have spoken) fairly anti-undead.

Feats (the cleric is human btb):
Combat Casting
Scribe Scroll*
Spell Penetration

Domains:
Repose
Nobility

Chris

*IF I smile sweetly at the GM I might be allowed to change this as its not been used yet

[Eldariel]

Honestly, if you focus on summoning, you at the VERY least should have Augment Summoning. That requires Spell Focus: Conjuration. Also Divine Metamagic [Complete Divine]: Rapid Spell and Rapid Spell [Complete Divine] to summon as a standard action (normally it takes the whole round to cast a Summon; that sucks).

So yeah, I suggest cutting Scribe Scroll for some of those. Frankly, I'd try and cut the other two feats too, but meh, I guess you're outta luck there. Really though, if you're a summoner, there are lots of feats that help you so...yeah, you wanna use 'em.

[Gnorman]

Well my original take was a evangelical uptight pretty straight forward Cleric (but the dice have spoken) fairly anti-undead.

Feats (the cleric is human btb):
Combat Casting
Scribe Scroll*
Spell Penetration

Domains:
Repose
Nobility

Chris

*IF I smile sweetly at the GM I might be allowed to change this as its not been used yet

Scribe Scroll is not helpful for you. Combat Casting is absolute trash. Spell Penetration is okay, but if you're going to focus on summoning, the SR of your opponents doesn't matter at all. See if you can retrain all of them away. And while you're at it, replace Repose and Nobility with Trickery and Summoning.

I'll second Cloudy Conjuration (there are 1,001 uses for a concealment-granting, line-of-sight-blocking cloud of sickening smoke), but Augment Summoning is totally your bread and butter. Summon Elemental is just about the most useful reserve feat ever (hell, one of the most useful feats period). Imbue Summoning lets you save actions by buffing your hordes. Stalwart Planar Ally for your plane of choice is great too, but only the lower planes have enough options to really make the feat worth it.

I guess the real question I have is what do you want to summon? Malconvoker isn't that helpful if you want to be dealing with avorals and lillends, after all. If so, look into Celestial Summoning Specialist and beg and plead with your DM to get the Harmonious Choir of the Words (from Dragon #353) on your SM IX list. It's that good - a walking, talking aura of buffing bardic brillliance.

[elberon]

1- See if you can retrain all of them away.
2- And while you're at it, replace Repose and Nobility with Trickery and Summoning.
3- I guess the real question I have is what do you want to summon? Malconvoker isn't that helpful if you want to be dealing with avorals and lillends, after all. If so, look into Celestial Summoning Specialist and beg and plead with your DM to get the Harmonious Choir of the Words (from Dragon #353) on your SM IX list. It's that good - a walking, talking aura of buffing bardic brillliance.

Hi there,
Thanks for your reply.
1- Is there a page I can quote for that, it'll probably have to wait til he gets back to town
2- We've got a bit of a 'god squad' theme going on, cleric paladin and monk all from allied Deities so can't really change domains. Hind sight and knowing how much my dice hate the cleric
3- Yeah I think Celestial is the way I'm going with the character, so a celestial summoner is probably the way ahead....
now to hunt down some info the HCoW
Bit more info, the game is in the Forgotten Realms world (Faerun)

Chris

[Gnorman]

Hi there,
Thanks for your reply.
1- Is there a page I can quote for that, it'll probably have to wait til he gets back to town
2- We've got a bit of a 'god squad' theme going on, cleric paladin and monk all from allied Deities so can't really change domains. Hind sight and knowing how much my dice hate the cleric
3- Yeah I think Celestial is the way I'm going with the character, so a celestial summoner is probably the way ahead....
now to hunt down some info the HCoW
Bit more info, the game is in the Forgotten Realms world (Faerun)

Chris

Then this is what I recommend:

Adapt the Malconvoker. It's easy to do - simply change the whole "tricking evil creatures" thing into "convincing good creatures." Instead of a Bluff vs. Sense Motive check, do an opposed Diplomacy check. All of your good creatures will get buffed, eventually doubled.

Malconvoker is a really easy class to adapt for your summoning needs. But now you have to call it... Beneconvoker, or something less ridiculous.

Celestial Convoker. Heaven's Host. Something like that.

[Thespianus]

Feats (the cleric is human btb):
Combat Casting
Scribe Scroll*
Spell Penetration

Domains:
Repose
Nobility

Ouch.

Well, if you get to retrain Scribe Scroll, get Spell Focus(conjuration) and then, at level 3, get Augment Summoning. It will help. Then, learn to love your Domain Spell "Divine Favor", to get you some attack bonuses in combat, once you've summoned your animal friends. Also, help your party members by using your Nobility Domain Power to give them Morale bonus to attack and damage.

Also, see if you can change your Repose Domain power into the Divine feat Knowledge Devotion (one could (feebly) argue that "repose" and "knowledge" are almost related ). See Complete Champion for rules about getting a Domain Feat instead of a Domain Power.

Knowledge Devotion would help boost your attack and damage rolls.

EDIT: Also, what God do you worship? I find no Faerun god that grants Nobility and Repose. :)

[Gnorman]

EDIT: Also, what God do you worship? I find no Faerun god that grants Nobility and Repose. :)

I think (only conjecture, mind you) that his party worships the Triad? Which might make him a Tyrran - if the Paladin is stereotypically a Tormite and the monk an Ilmateri. Failing that, he might be a Kelemvorite.

[Thespianus]

I think (only conjecture, mind you) that his party worships the Triad? Which might make him a Tyrran - if the Paladin is stereotypically a Tormite and the monk an Ilmateri. Failing that, he might be a Kelemvorite.

None of them grants Nobility and Repose, right? ;)

But, if he's a Tyr-worshipper, Knowledge gets even closer. Good stuff!

[Gnorman]

None of them grants Nobility and Repose, right? ;)

But, if he's a Tyr-worshipper, Knowledge gets even closer. Good stuff!

Domains aren't exactly written in stone, you know. If it makes thematic sense (plenty of Tyrrans are noble, and they probably all hate undead), why not?

[Thespianus]

Domains aren't exactly written in stone, you know. If it makes thematic sense (plenty of Tyrrans are noble, and they probably all hate undead), why not?

Sure, all I'm saying is that it can be easier to convince a DM of switching one of ones Domain Powers to a Domain Feat instead if the Domain Feat in question is part of the deity's Domains.


Hmm..does that sentence make any sense?


Anyway: To the OP: Try to get Knowledge Devotion or Travel Devotion instead of the Repose Domain Power. I think at least Travel Devotion would help with moving and summoning, and Knowledge Devotion will help you hit things.

[Gnorman]

Sure, all I'm saying is that it can be easier to convince a DM of switching one of ones Domain Powers to a Domain Feat instead if the Domain Feat in question is part of the deity's Domains.


Hmm..does that sentence make any sense?


Anyway: To the OP: Try to get Knowledge Devotion or Travel Devotion instead of the Repose Domain Power. I think at least Travel Devotion would help with moving and summoning, and Knowledge Devotion will help you hit things.

Yeah, I get ya. We won't be able to figure it out until the OP tells us what god he actually worships.

But I'll second Knowledge Devotion - best melee feat in the game! Problem is, unless you're primed to handle it, it probably won't be all that effective for you. Well, not super effective - it's great straight out of the bin, but if you have a high knowledge check, it gets ridiculous good.

[Jack_Simth]

Hi there,
Thanks for your reply.
1- Is there a page I can quote for that, it'll probably have to wait til he gets back to town

It's a section of the PHB II - specifically, chapter 8 - but as you're looking at feats, specifically, you want page 193.

As for feats?
You might like to look up An old Thread of mine.

Edit:
Really, though, you don't need that much in the way of PrC's - pure Cleric is pretty strong to begin with.
As for Items, as a Summoner/buffer, look for a Ring of Invisibility. It'll be useful in that it cuts down how often you're a target.

[Eldariel]

1- Is there a page I can quote for that, it'll probably have to wait til he gets back to town

Retrain rules don't exist in PHB, but you can just ask for it. PHBII, however, does have an extensive section on retraining, including feat retraining and Domain retraining. So yeah, you should be able to pull it off.

And you definitely want Summoning-domain if possible. Planning, Undeath, Spell and company are all good too, but of course much depends on the deity. Frankly, you can pull it off with your present Domains, but the alternative Domains are really nice.


And Divine Metamagic is absolutely gorgeous with Summons. As I said earlier, "Rapid Spell" goes great with them and Twin Spell [CArcane] is also great (level 5 Malconvoker [possibly adapted], level 10 character, summoning something doubles it, then you get the Summon-spell twice from Twin Spell allowing you to summon FOUR creatures instead of one).

A quick list of feats a summoner Cleric enjoys:
- Rapid Spell [CDiv] (to summon stuff on your own turn instead of taking the whole round)
- Twin Spell [CArc] (as stated)
- Imbued Summoning [PHBII]
- Divine Metamagic [CDiv] (to Metamagic up your highest level Summons)
- Metamagic School Focus [CMage] (another way to reduce Metamagic-costs of your Summons)
- Augment Summoning [PHB] (yeah, getting better summons is nice)

[elberon]

Yeah, I get ya. We won't be able to figure it out until the OP tells us what god he actually worships.

But I'll second Knowledge Devotion - best melee feat in the game! Problem is, unless you're primed to handle it, it probably won't be all that effective for you. Well, not super effective - it's great straight out of the bin, but if you have a high knowledge check, it gets ridiculous good.

Cleric follows Lathander but I wanted a bit more of an anti undead feel so got second domain to Repose. These really come under fixed points like stats that my GM really won't allow any changes in - which is fair enough really.

Chris