RAI Nerf on Rope Trick? [3.5]

[Twilight Jack]

So everyone knows of the juiced and condensed AWESOME that is rope trick, the spell which ensures your party never has to worry about setting a watch ever again. From 5th level on, you and up to six of your friends are completely invulnerable to any CR appropriate encounter for all the time you need to rest and regain spells. Yippee!

Except there's a troubling "note" at the bottom of the spell description. To wit:

Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one.

But it doesn't elaborate on what, exactly, "hazardous" entails, or what constitutes another extradimensional space.

So we're forced to look elsewhere for examples of extradimensional spaces and how they interact with one another. First, we learn that the term extradimensional space and nondimensional space are effectively interchangeable, since different descriptions of the same effect often substitute one term for the other casually. Which brings us to this little gem:

If a bag of holding is placed within a portable hole a rift to the Astral Plane is torn in the space: Bag and hole alike are sucked into the void and forever lost. If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane: The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, destroying the portable hole and bag of holding in the process.

It is perfectly rational to infer that the causal factor in this catastrophic reaction may well be the interaction of the extradimensional space of the bag of holding with the extradimensional space of the portable hole.

So, given the note that it's hazardous to place one extradimensional space into another, and the example provided by the portable hole/bag of holding fiasco, what does that mean when you waltz into the extradimensional space created by a rope trick with a bag of holding/portable hole/handy haversack/quiver of the woodlands/etc. in your possession?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Absolutely nothing, if WotC articles on the subject are to be believed.

[Kylarra]

RAI seems to disagree with your conclusion.

[Twilight Jack]

Absolutely nothing, if WotC articles on the subject are to be believed.

Link me, if you can. I don't doubt you at all, but I have to think that if they went to the trouble of including a special note in the description for a spell, that they meant something by it. They include a note that it's dangerous, but never give any example of how. It's infuriating, since it seems to hint at a much needed limiting factor on the utility of the spell, but never gives any kind of detail on the nature of the "hazard" that they make a point of noting.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Link me, if you can.

Ha! What now?

[kamikasei]

So, given the note that it's hazardous to place one extradimensional space into another, and the example provided by the portable hole/bag of holding fiasco, what does that mean when you waltz into the extradimensional space created by a rope trick with a bag of holding/portable hole/handy haversack/quiver of the woodlands/etc. in your possession?

Of those, only the portable hole is an extradimensional space. The others are nondimensional spaces. (Quibbling? Well, if they bother to make the distinction I'll bother to note it.)

The interaction of bags of holding and portable holes, and any other notes about the "hazards" of extradimensional spaces, are just legacy details, not an attempt at careful balance.

[Another_Poet]

Yeah. This subject has pretty much been talked to death in other threads.

The vague text is just a leftover from previous editions, that should have been edited out but wasn't. If you feel the need as a GM, it's an excuse to mess with your players but a flimsy excuse at best. If you're a player then ask your GM - or better yet, don't, since if you don't bring it up they'll probably never even remember it and won't use it against you.

It's best overlooked and ignored; any specific side-effect is a house rule you should make clear to your players.

[Twilight Jack]

RAI seems to disagree with your conclusion.

I never drew a definitive conclusion, only suggested that the entry for rope trick spoke of hazards, and the only similar discussion in the entirety of the SRD spoke of rifts to the Astral Plane, which seem plenty hazardous to me.

Someone at Wizards put that note there for a reason, even if it was never elaborated upon. Skip Williams, on the other hand, seems to think its inclusion should have been errata'd away, since he suggests you ignore it. My guess is that someone else on the design team disagreed.

I honestly don't know what to make of it. I love me some rope trick, although I've pissed more than a few DMs off with it when I completely bypassed the entire notion of an ambush. Let's face it, the spell as written does a whole lot to elevate the power level of arcane casters, since it completely removes one of their primary weaknesses: the need to rest to regain spells when such rest may be "hazardous."

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

1) RAI nerfing is wonderful. It's like Obi-wan; its our only hope

2) RAW quibbling usually isn't that useful for nerfing unless there is a wide consensus.

3) for the OP:

I recommend that you ignore this reference. Your campaign won't be improved if rope trick effects implode when someone carries a bag of holding or portable hole inside. A Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion should likewise prove benign if someone carries a bag of holding or portable hole inside.

He is giving us his house rule - to ignore something in the RAW. His reasoning is fine (less complication). But since it helps nerf casters, I disagree about the fun aspect. As long as the DM gives fair warning ("You might want to read the note on the end of that spell before you cast it") I think its hillarious to make his other extra dimensional spaces insta-gib as per the portable hole precedent.

4) on an unrelated note what kind of evil person doesn't like bunnies!?

When not devising swift and cruel deaths for player characters, Skip putters in his kitchen or garden (rabbits and deer are not Skip's friends)

yes they eat your carrots - but they look so cute while doing it!

[Raging Gene Ray]

My DM ruled that it's okay to bring a Bag of Holding into an Extradimensional Space just as long as you don't open it.

Just throwing that out there.

[Satyr]

If a wizard would bring a extradimensional item into a Rope Trick (and I when I haven't banned this spell for whatsoever reason) in a game run by me, I would probably kill the wizard in the most cruel and unusual way I can think of, make sure it was pretty memorable, so that the players will insitinctively shun away from doing so ever again, and rejoice.
But then again, killing wizards is often a very valid solution for many of the most nefarious issues in the D&D rules. It may not be the solution for every problem, but it is so satisfying.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

If a wizard would bring a extradimensional item into a Rope Trick (and I when I haven't banned this spell for whatsoever reason) in a game run by me, I would probably kill the wizard in the most cruel and unusual way I can think of, make sure it was pretty memorable, so that the players will insitinctively shun away from doing so ever again, and rejoice.
But then again, killing wizards is often a very valid solution for many of the most nefarious issues in the D&D rules.

How about when the DM is being abusive?

[SparkMandriller]

You kill him in the most cruel and unusual way you can think of.

[dsmiles]

Blah, blah, rope trick. Blah, blah astrophysics stuff.

I usually only make it hazardous if an extradimensional space is opened within another extradimensional space. But my RAISS (Rules as I say so) for hazardous is a little more extreme. Something about quantum foam and summoning things from the Far Realm...blah, blah...Colour Out of Space...blah, blah...Cthulhu rising from his rest...blah, blah...

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I usually only make it hazardous if an extradimensional space is opened within another extradimensional space. But my RAISS (Rules as I say so) for hazardous is a little more extreme. Something about quantum foam and summoning things from the Far Realm...blah, blah...Colour Out of Space...blah, blah...Cthulhu rising from his rest...blah, blah...

Not a problem if you have a steam ship or two on hand.

[Satyr]

How about when the DM is being abusive?

While I think that abusive might a bit too strong of a word for someone who kills imaginary figures - I think as long as a fair warning was mentioned beforehand, and the warning is ignored, the character is game. If there was no such warning, the gamemaster is a jerk, true.
But there is no obligation whatsoever to condescendingly treat the players like small children who cannot stand a setback or must be pampered at all time, and in D&D, death is usually not that much of a setback at all.

[dsmiles]

Not a problem if you have a steam ship or two on hand.

In my low-magic/high-technology campaign world, you might just have some of those lying around...along with some guns, steam-powered golems, clockwork golems, etc, etc...

[kamikasei]

But there is no obligation whatsoever to condescendingly treat the players like small children who cannot stand a setback or must be pampered at all time...

Seems to me that reminding a player of what his character, as a wizard, would surely know - that (in the world you're running) a common type of magical item will explode if he combines it with the spell he's just cast - is a long way from condescending to or pampering your players. It's the kind of thing that a player is a lot more likely to forget than is his character.

[Satyr]

Seems to me that reminding a player of what his character, as a wizard, would surely know - that (in the world you're running) a common type of magical item will explode if he combines it with the spell he's just cast - is a long way from condescending to or pampering your players. It's the kind of thing that a player is a lot more likely to forget than is his character.

Which is why I wrote that stuff about the warning beforehand, and not warning people would be a jerk move. I am probably over-reacting, but I have my problems with the "Oh no! Something bad happens to a player character! Sure this is a bad, abusive gamemaster!" perspective.

[dsmiles]

Which is why I wrote that stuff about the warning beforehand, and not warning people would be a jerk move. I am probably over-reacting, but I have my problems with the "Oh no! Something bad happens to a player character! Sure this is a bad, abusive gamemaster!" perspective.

As far as warning players goes, I warn them once when they acquire the bag of holding/portable hole/HHH/Quiver of Ehlonnha or whatever. After that, they're on their own.

[kamikasei]

Which is why I wrote that stuff about the warning beforehand, and not warning people would be a jerk move. I am probably over-reacting, but I have my problems with the "Oh no! Something bad happens to a player character! Sure this is a bad, abusive gamemaster!" perspective.

If you warn the players once, at the start of the game, I would say that's not really sufficient warning - "what you're about to do will cause an explosion, and your characters would bloody well know it" is the sort of thing that bears repeating every time it comes up. If you warn the players every time they're about to bring a portable hole in to a rope trick, then I'm not sure why you bothered to mention the scenario - I suppose there are players out there who'd say "I don't care, my character does it anyway!", but who cares what happens to them in that case?

But you're exaggerating your opposition here - when you say you'd kill the character "in the most cruel and unusual way you can think of" and "rejoice", because it's "satisfying", yeah, that sounds like fair grounds for an accusation of bad and abusive DMing.

[Sinfire Titan]

Link me, if you can.

Enjoy. Not the same article linked above.

[lesser_minion]

In my group, the DM/Chronicler/Narrator/Storyguide/GM takes all character sheets between sessions.

In my case, I'd warn them at least once in the session, and make sure that there is a warning on their character sheet after the session.

If they don't remember that it's a big mistake to do that sort of thing then, they are fair game.

[Satyr]

As far as I am concerned, the wizard would be entitled a skill check before he writes the Rope Trick spell into his spell book, and again when he casts the spell for the first time or so.

But you're exaggerating your opposition here - when you say you'd kill the character "in the most cruel and unusual way you can think of" and "rejoice", because it's "satisfying", yeah, that sounds like fair grounds for an accusation of bad and abusive DMing.

I thought that was so over the top that it would be easily recognizable as an ironic hyperbole.

[kamikasei]

I thought that was so over the top that it would be easily recognizable as an ironic hyperbole.

Not really, no. Unfortunately, it's an entirely plausible attitude.

[SparkMandriller]

Enjoy. Not the same article linked above.

Your link is error.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

It's not the same article as linked to above!

[lesser_minion]

It's not the same article as linked to above!

Yes, but it actually goes to a server's "domain name up for sale" page.

[dsmiles]

That doesn't mean that it was an error. It truly isn't the same article...

[graeylin]

First, we learn that the term extradimensional space and nondimensional space are effectively interchangeable, since different descriptions of the same effect often substitute one term for the other casually.

can you give me a couple examples of this? my admittedly basic research shows that the terms are used distinctly. I would like to add your research to mine.