If I was an average Azurite right now

[Alex Warlorn]

If I was an average Azurite right now, one who had never heard of the Sapphire Guard or the Gate to begin with, weather one who had managed somehow to escape alive, or was now a ghost whose dead body was being used as part of an undead army, or was now enslaved. I'd just have three words for Redcloak and his declaration of renaming my HOME.

"F', you, bastard!"

If the resistance can pick up on this, and use it to their advantage, they can have an all out slave riot on the goblin's hands.

[SPoD]

Yes, I'm sure this will really rally the throngs of people who weren't offended by Redcloak conquering their homeland, enslaving their species, and holding on to it for a year, but are incensed at a name change.

Seriously, changing the name is like 35th on the list of Bad Things Redcloak Has Done to Azure City. I think at this point, any Azurite who's not already mad is a lost cause.

[ThePhantasm]

Its not like there are any humans who are buddying up to the goblins right now.... why would they need any extra convincing by the Resistance?

[Conuly]

Its not like there are any humans who are buddying up to the goblins right now.... why would they need any extra convincing by the Resistance?

Except Tsukiko, and only to jump Xykon's bones.

...

Actually, that's an interesting question. ARE there any human collaborators? We haven't seen any, of course.

[Temotei]

Except Tsukiko, and only to jump Xykon's bones.

...

Actually, that's an interesting question. ARE there any human collaborators? We haven't seen any, of course.

MitD?

[Southern Cross]

Actually,given all the weird stuff we've seen the MiTD do,human is the one thing he probably isn't....

[Vargtass]

Except Tsukiko, and only to jump Xykon's bones.

...

Actually, that's an interesting question. ARE there any human collaborators? We haven't seen any, of course.

Depends on your definition. From today's strip, it is clear that Cliffport (mainly human population) supports Gobbotopia. The other sovereign states that have recognised Gobbotopia could also well contain humans, but we don't know yet.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

After reading SoD, I'm with Redcloak here, go gobbos!

[Katana_Geldar]

Seriously, changing the name is like 35th on the list of Bad Things Redcloak Has Done to Azure City. I think at this point, any Azurite who's not already mad is a lost cause.

I must see this list

[dps]

Depends on your definition. From today's strip, it is clear that Cliffport (mainly human population) supports Gobbotopia. The other sovereign states that have recognised Gobbotopia could also well contain humans, but we don't know yet.

I think that Conuly meant Azurites who might be collabarating, not foreign nations.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Depends on your definition. From today's strip, it is clear that Cliffport (mainly human population) supports Gobbotopia.

No, they don’t really support gobbotopia. They just oppose the elves and are pulling an “enemy of my enemy” thing to get at the elves.

[ScottishDragon]

After reading SoD, I'm with Redcloak here, go gobbos!

:D same here(cept for reading sod)

[Slayn82]

Well, the fact is that with an entire nation of goblinoids and other monsters organizing themselves, and founding an civilization, acepting to trade with other countries, the number of ramdom monsters everywhere else will fall. Literally, a lot of bandits and unemployees will migrate to Gobbotopia. So, less internal troubles. I guess the related nations will activelly encourage their emigration.

Also, a strong reason why those races are so much reviled is because they are "uncivilized". By getting their own nation, they will be able to change the status quo.

On the other side, the Azurites are getting a new kingdom for themselves near the Elflands. I guess a lot of the kingdom of Azure city had originally belonged to the primitive monsters and goblins near it, who were killed and forced away. Now, their lots are inverted.

I hope the goblins turn out ok, and diplomacy allow the humans to get some freedom and citizenship in Gobbotopia or be eventually allowed to leave.

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The trouble is that with so much sucess, the reasons for RC to follow the plan are reduced. So, i fear he will be sabbotaged by Xykon and his own God, in order for RC to go along the plan.

[Alex Warlorn]

Well, the fact is that with an entire nation of goblinoids and other monsters organizing themselves, and founding an civilization, acepting to trade with other countries, the number of ramdom monsters everywhere else will fall. Literally, a lot of bandits and unemployees will migrate to Gobbotopia. So, less internal troubles. I guess the related nations will activelly encourage their emigration.

Also, a strong reason why those races are so much reviled is because they are "uncivilized". By getting their own nation, they will be able to change the status quo.

On the other side, the Azurites are getting a new kingdom for themselves near the Elflands. I guess a lot of the kingdom of Azure city had originally belonged to the primitive monsters and goblins near it, who were killed and forced away. Now, their lots are inverted.

I hope the goblins turn out ok, and diplomacy allow the humans to get some freedom and citizenship in Gobbotopia or be eventually allowed to leave.

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The trouble is that with so much sucess, the reasons for RC to follow the plan are reduced. So, i fear he will be sabbotaged by Xykon and his own God, in order for RC to go along the plan.

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Imagine if it was the Dark One who gave Xykon hints on where to find Redcloak and where to get info on the other gates. Because he had put so much into creating the Crimson Mantle, he just can't recreate it tra la la and give it to ANOTHER goblin who thinks all humans are clones of Miko.

Also, seriously, I don't think the Azurites are just gonna settle down permanently. It's not outside the law of probability that the elves are gonna come along and say, "HEY! What are you guys living in my summer home?!" The elves might have withdrawn from it, but it could still be legally their territory. True, elves aren't known for their fast response time, but that's because they ANALYZE the situation as realistically possible first, because unlike other races (comparatively shorter lived), if the elves screw up, those elves WILL be around to deal with the long term consequences themselves!

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Xykon destroyed Right Eye's settlement to keep the plot moving. Of course he'll do the same if Redcloak gets too comfy.

[The Extinguisher]

Things like this are exactly why I don't like Redcloak, even after reading SoD.

A goblin nation through invasion and oppression isn't really helping his cause any at all.

[Optimystik]

Things like this are exactly why I don't like Redcloak, even after reading SoD.

A goblin nation through invasion and oppression isn't really helping his cause any at all.

True - I think the Giant is going out of his way to draw the despotic parallel, so we don't get too sympathetic with Redcloak.

Someone should remind him that slavery isn't "equality." He has no plans for the nation to become self-sufficient, instead wanting to convince neighboring countries to accept his need to oppress humans.

[Ancalagon]

Someone should remind him that slavery isn't "equality." He has no plans for the nation to become self-sufficient, instead wanting to convince neighboring countries to accept his need to oppress humans.

But luckily for the goblins, Redcloak is going to be out of their way quite fast so they can find their own way. That might or might not include a burning hate for humans - but it's totally their choice.

Redcloak has BUILD the country... and now it's good he leaves so the country is free from old weight, ready to find a way that works. Redcloak wants to build Goblin-Utopia yet does not realise he is the one who can start it, but not the one who can finish it. With him gone, things can only improve (unless GC gets raided or something).

[Ancalagon]

Things like this are exactly why I don't like Redcloak, even after reading SoD.

ESPECIALLY after reading SoD.

Before we read SoD we thought he'd just be some sort of head-minion. But in SoD we learned he's much more and much worse than just that.

[The Extinguisher]

Also, handing out propoganda on the first day is a little over the top, if you ask me.

[Ancalagon]

Also, handing out propoganda on the first day is a little over the top, if you ask me.

Nah... it's rather "how it's done right". :)

[Optimystik]

But luckily for the goblins, Redcloak is going to be out of their way quite fast so they can find their own way. That might or might not include a burning hate for humans - but it's totally their choice.

Is it? What reason do they have to stop the slavery in his absence? He is the mastermind behind their nation - for all they know, he has researched economically sound theories behind their current labor model, and deviating from the course would be disastrous.

No, the change has to come from the top - as "Shepherd of all the Goblin people," he has the biggest impact on his people's morality.

Also, handing out propoganda on the first day is a little over the top, if you ask me.

There was propaganda before the books, if you count statues.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

On the other side, the Azurites are getting a new kingdom for themselves near the Elflands.

Since when?

They’re in exile, not re-settling.

[Dr.Epic]

If I was an average Azurite right now, one who had never heard of the Sapphire Guard or the Gate to begin with, weather one who had managed somehow to escape alive, or was now a ghost whose dead body was being used as part of an undead army, or was now enslaved. I'd just have three words for Redcloak and his declaration of renaming my HOME.

"F', you, bastard!"

If the resistance can pick up on this, and use it to their advantage, they can have an all out slave riot on the goblin's hands.

I'm sorry, but is the purpose of this thread supposed to be Red Cloak's a jerk because we kind of already established that when he...

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-killed the supposed hobgoblin leader to become leader of the hobgoblins
-allied himself with an evil sorcerer he would one day turn into a lich
-worshipped an evil god
-devoted his whole life to a plot that may unleash an entity that can slaughter gods and unmake reality
-conquered a nation
-imprisoned and enslaved innocent humans
-killed his brother
-forced hobgoblins to their death based on a childhood grudge
-...and several other acts of evil I probably forgot to mention.

[snafu]

Since when?

They’re in exile, not re-settling.

Exiles have a way of becoming permanent, once people get settled, once they have family that never knew the homeland. It's entirely possible that the Azurites will still be there in the Elflands a thousand years from now. How many songs of homesick nostalgia are sung in Irish bars across the globe by people who've never in their lives been near the place? How many centuries did people say to each other, 'Next year in Jerusalem!'

[Optimystik]

Since when?

They’re in exile, not re-settling.

I don't think they'll be getting their blue city back. They may not deserve slavery, but they definitely deserved destruction, as per Rich's comments in War & XPs.

[CoffeeIncluded]

I don't think they'll be getting their blue city back. They may not deserve slavery, but they definitely deserved destruction, as per Rich's comments in War & XPs.

What did his comments say?

[hamishspence]

Its spoken of as "most damning of all" in a sentence about Azure City being a city that "failed to live up to its ideals". Miko, Shojo, and the Azurite nobility's willingness to abandon their people are all cited- but the behaviour of the Saphhire Guard toward "goblins and other humanoids" is considered the worst.

That said, in DsTP commentaries, it does say that they have paid in full for what they've done, and that the Azurites are still the "good guys" at the start of the commentary on O-chul.

[Optimystik]

Exactly - they have paid in full for their crimes by losing their city. Thus, the ongoing slavery has no moral justification, yet it is clear that Redcloak has no intention of stopping it.

[Ancalagon]

Is it? What reason do they have to stop the slavery in his absence? He is the mastermind behind their nation - for all they know, he has researched economically sound theories behind their current labor model, and deviating from the course would be disastrous.

No, the change has to come from the top - as "Shepherd of all the Goblin people," he has the biggest impact on his people's morality.

I think it is. Right now, Redcloak is a dictator, what he says is what is done. He set the policy. Redcloak gives the direction and everyone follows. He is the "hero" who made it all happen AND the top cleric of the Dark One, as the Crimson Mantle shows.
These two things give him an authority that no other ruler can ever claim.

While I think that Redcloak is a good ruler (in the regard that he makes descisions on a day-to-day and strategic level that are good for the new nation) I also think that his basic personality is also reflected in his basic descisions - and that personality has some fantatic traits that cannot be goodfor in the nation in the long run.
We know from the history that Redcloak does not reflect certain attitudes of his and with him in power, the goblins can be strong but they will never be able to reach a state of "equalty with other nations".

Without Redcloak, the goblins will have to find new forms of government and even if there is a new dictator, he will never be able to claim the authority that Redcloak has and thus he can be, politically, fought if he becomes too extreme.

The goblins now will have to find "their place in the world" and that will require new attitudes and other abilities than those that helped Redcloak to achieve this starting position. Redcloak is the guy who started it but I doubt he can finish this development in a way that the goblins become more than "hostile and a potential threat to the others".

Please note that I talk about a rather global level of "equalty of nations" and that the abolishment of slavery or "individual equalty" is not necessarily included at the beginning (that can follow after a decade for five).
Gobbotopia under Redcloak will always be "Redcloak's Nation" - will all consequences Redcloak's personality calls for.

[hamishspence]

We''l have to wait and see- but I would not be entirly surprised if Redcloak kept the slavery simply so that, once the alliances were in place, the burden on the "average Azurites" could be relieved bit by bit, so that all the neighbours can think

"accepting Gobbotopia was the right decision- because it is getting better and better over time"

This may, however, be giving him too much credit.