[3.x] No love for the spontaneous caster

[DementedFellow]

Why is it that casters who prepare their spells ahead of time get higher spells earlier? It makes no sense. Can someone explain to me how a wizard who can channel arcane forces by reading a book gets more spells and higher spells earlier than someone who doesn't need a book and can reshape reality by the force of his personality?

Does it say that a sorcerer or a bard cannot read? No. So why are they denied the ability to gain new spells aside from DM fiat? So does this mean that sorcs and bards cannot write? No. So why can't they learn a new spell from a scroll?

Obviously spontaneous casting is a better system. Especially compared to having to pick your spells at the beginning of each day and being boned if you choose poorly. Bookkeeping is just a chore and doesn't particularly lend itself to fun.

It just seems that the system is out to unfairly punish players who don't like to spend precious time to choose spells daily.

Let's go even further. Wizards basically need one stat. The rest can be 10 and they're just fine. INT drives their spell power and their skills. CON is the only thing a wizard might need. The rest could even be in the negatives.

But Sorcerers and Bards need CHA and CON and then INT for skills. Why make spontaneous casters MAD? It's like the game designers saw the potential for a more fun (if only for the pew pew pew factor) class than the wizard and said, "We can't have that. We need to nerf the hell out of the class."

I guess I'm just venting. I don't see reading a book as giving someone power when they can cast cantrips and spells without having to touch one. Am I alone in this feeling?

[deuxhero]

HOLD IT!

Wizards can benifit from dex (initiative is quite important from batman)

[HCL]

Yes prepared casters are better off generally since they don't have problems using metamagic and they get higher level spells earlier

But on the other hand, a Great Wyrm Dragonwrought Child of Ebberron Kobold Warmage/Rainbow Servant can spontaneously cast anything off the warmage, druid, or cleric spell list :D

[ghashxx]

Yay, another lover of spontaneous casting. I ran a sorcerer, and I've run a druid. While I will be the first to admit that a wizard is better than sorcerer because there are so many spells you will only need to cast once a day (rope trick, that one that lets you not be flatfooted, etc) that a sorcerer simply can't cover all those bases.

This makes me sad, but I still enjoyed the sorcerer a lot. I guess this is something they addressed in 4th, instead of having two different methods of spell casting you just get rid of sorcerers...grrrrr.

Homebrewing is always an option. Bonus feats like wizards, access to spells like wizards, and something I've been fiddling with is allowing a few slots to be used each day for one random spell you "know". In effect this would be like having a small pool of your spell casting be like a wizard. So maybe by 5th level you have one wizard 1st and 2nd level spells to fiddle with. So let's say you chose rope trick as your 2nd level, you can now cast that one spell once each day. Increased levels equals increased wizard like spell pools of the lower level spells, and access to the upper level spells.

It's a system I haven't really worked out yet, but it'd be to have. Still not the optimization potential of a wizard, but allowing a few of those "I only need this, at the most, once each day" spells to be used by sorcerers etc.

[Narazil]

Being able to cast all your spells without choosing is obviously superior to choosing what spells you can cast at the start of the day - which is why Wizards get higher level spells earlier, I think.

Sorcerers and Bards use magic, they don't understand it. The power comes to them naturally.
A Wizard, on the other hand, studies and understands what he's doing - and is therefore able to understand the "language" of magic - a language mostly universal, which is why other Wizards are able to learn spells from your spellbook.

[Mystic Muse]

Sorceror's get less spells known but they get more spells per day.

Somebody who does things by "instinct" is not generally going to be as good as the person who studies and such.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Being able to cast all your spells without choosing is obviously superior to choosing what spells you can cast at the start of the day - which is why Wizards get higher level spells earlier, I think.

Except all that matters is your high-level spells. On even levels, a Sorc only has one spell of their highest level. So the 'spontaneous' caster is choosing what they'll cast at level-up, while the prepared caster gets to repick daily. Yeah, WotC didn't think this through.

[Ferrin]

While I agree that Wizards and other prepared spellcasters have to much to choose from at any time, there are still a lot of other people who like that system for some obscure reason. I prefer spontaneous casters as well, and psionics even more because the system just works better for me.

If you don't like it you can change it yourself if you're DMing, or can talk to your DM about it. No one forces you to play one, and if the reason is power then something is going horribly wrong.

It's a choice of playstyle, love it or hate it. I myself would choose spontaneous casting over prepared casting any day.

[Narazil]

Except all that matters is your high-level spells. On even levels, a Sorc only has one spell of their highest level. So the 'spontaneous' caster is choosing what they'll cast at level-up, while the prepared caster gets to repick daily. Yeah, WotC didn't think this through.

You're right - mechanically Wizards are stronger than Sorcerers. While being able to use all your spells known all the time is a great feature, having more spells known is better generally.
There are situations where a Wizard will be screwed, though. Coming up against Undeads with mostly mind-influencing spells is a pretty decent way of dying, a problem a Sorcerer will never encounter.
Getting to repick your spells as a Wizard requires you to survive the night, though. In combat, being able to cast Dismissal, but not having it prepared, is obviously as good as not being able to cast Dismissal at all.

[Sinfire Titan]

Apparently, you've never played a Kobold before. Starting at 6th level (possibly sooner), Kobold Sorcerers get their spells a level earlier than Wizards do. If built properly, you can get spells 4 levels earlier than normal.

[Narazil]

Apparently, you've never played an optimized Kobold before. Starting at 6th level (possibly sooner), Kobold Sorcerers get their spells a level earlier than Wizards do. If built properly, you can get spells 4 levels earlier than normal.

Fixed.

And really, that shouldn't be needed. Min/Maxing to bypass a flawed design shouldn't be required.

[Signmaker]

Apparently, you've never played a Kobold before. Starting at 6th level (possibly sooner), Kobold Sorcerers get their spells a level earlier than Wizards do. If built cheesily, you can get spells 4 levels earlier than normal.

If you don't mind the fix. =P

I honestly don't see the complaints. In core? Spontaneous casters have it hard. I can't deny that, and very few people will.

Open up a few key splatbooks, and the picture at high levels starts to change. Sorcerers start to get much better action economy via spells such as Arcane Fusion and Arcane Spellsurge. So while the wizard is traditionally on top, it shouldn't be assumed that the spontaneous caster is far behind. Far from it, often.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

You're right - mechanically Wizards are stronger than Sorcerers. While being able to use all your spells known all the time is a great feature, having more spells known is better generally.
There are situations where a Wizard will be screwed, though. Coming up against Undeads with mostly mind-influencing spells is a pretty decent way of dying, a problem a Sorcerer will never encounter.
Getting to repick your spells as a Wizard requires you to survive the night, though. In combat, being able to cast Dismissal, but not having it prepared, is obviously as good as not being able to cast Dismissal at all.

LBut, and this is what you're overlooking, is that low-level spells don't matter. High level ones do. Say you're a level 10 Sorcerer. You have 3 5th level slots and 5 4th level slots(+Cha mod, so add 1 to each). You have 1 5th level spell known and 2 4th level spells known. How is that versatility? Meanwhile the Wizard has 4 5th and 5 4th slots, each of which has a different spell in it.

[Narazil]

LBut, and this is what you're overlooking, is that low-level spells don't matter. High level ones do. Say you're a level 10 Sorcerer. You have 3 5th level slots and 5 4th level slots(+Cha mod, so add 1 to each). You have 1 5th level spell known and 2 4th level spells known. How is that versatility? Meanwhile the Wizard has 4 5th and 5 4th slots, each of which has a different spell in it.

Wait, what? Lower level spells don't matter? Only your current highest level spell does?


Uhm.. I guess we'll have to disagree on that.

[Signmaker]

LBut, and this is what you're overlooking, is that low-level spells don't matter. High level ones do. Say you're a level 10 Sorcerer. You have 3 5th level slots and 5 4th level slots(+Cha mod, so add 1 to each). You have 1 5th level spell known and 2 4th level spells known. How is that versatility? Meanwhile the Wizard has 4 5th and 5 4th slots, each of which has a different spell in it.

It isn't versatility. But if the Sorcerer is Arcane Fusioning Orb of X with True Strike repeatedly, that's a noticable impact, versatility damn it. One shouldn't belittle the value of low-levelled spells, as they only 'don't matter' when one doesn't have the action economy to utilize them.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Wait, what? Lower level spells don't matter? Only your current highest level spell does?


Uhm.. I guess we'll have to disagree on that.

If the spell is capped, you're probably hitting that cap after 4 levels. If it offers a save, it doesn't do so at the highest possible. immunities become common, as do enemies that can simply ignore it. Yes, you can use lower-level spells, but you have to select carefully, and generally not in combat. Actions are too valuable to waste on something not level-appropriate.

[taltamir]

WOTC of the coast assumed that everyone will be playing an extremely sub par AoO evocation blaster. aka, someone who spams fireball and lightening bolt and the like.
The sorcerer gets more of those per day, at the cost of spells know, slower progression, etc.
in reality though, sorcerers get the shaft. its worst for favored souls, whose cha determines their bonus spells, but wisdom determines save DC against their spells.

[onthetown]

It's a poor attempt to try to balance the classes out, methinks. Nobody completely gets their own way.

In pros vs cons... Sorcs/bards can cast anything they know within the limits of their spells per day, where wizards are forced to do bookkeeping and pray they don't screw up their spell choices. So, wizards are able to learn anything, where sorcs/bards are confined in their choice of spells. Sorcs can cast more times per day but learn less, wizards can cast less times per day but learn more.

Unfortunately, by throwing in the wizards getting spell levels before sorcs, they've managed to unbalance it.

[Pink]

Wow...did I actually see someone call a sorceror MAD? Really? I mean bard sure, but sorc?

First note, as far as being unable to learn spells 'cept through dm fiat, not true. There are feats. Granted the one from. Comp. Arcane sucks, but its there.

Also, clearly you aim this only at the core spontaneous casters. Warmages and beguilers and dread necros get plenty more spells known than sorc.

But really, the tone in this thread that sorcs get screwed, come on, it's like you're making it try and sound like a sorc is like a fighter.

Wizard is powerful. It is pretty much the best you can get with arcane, maybe the best class in the game period. If you're trying to compare anything besides the best class, you're gonna get flaws. Sorc is still a good class on its own.

[Optimystik]

There was no reason for them to arbitrarily force sorcerers (and favored souls) to gain spells one level slower than their prepared counterparts. The limited spells known is enough of a drawback that it cancels out the ability not to prepare.

Psions (and Beguilers, Dread Necros, etc.) prove that spontaneity alone does not a gamebreaker make.

[mostlyharmful]

yeah, I've been playing around with homebrew ways of gaining spells known and amalgamate the Sorc/Wizard classes. delay spell progression and in return allow a sexy cool way of becoming more versitile.

Would depend on the way you get it, maybe milking the xp gravy train for an xp hit every time you want to get a new spell, maybe cutting wbl to 'eat' scrolls to leave mages dependant on gear found, maybe just going the hell with it and letting them train in x months to give them something else to occupy their downtime rather than shanking the economy... work in progress...

[DementedFellow]

There was no reason for them to arbitrarily force sorcerers (and favored souls) to gain spells one level slower than their prepared counterparts. The limited spells known is enough of a drawback that it cancels out the ability not to prepare.

Psions (and Beguilers, Dread Necros, etc.) prove that spontaneity alone does not a gamebreaker make.

This. This. This. A thousand times this. This should have been my OP.

[HailDiscordia]

Sorcerers should at least get 4+ skill points a level. And Diplomacy is not even on their skill list! That's real crummy. If you want to spend your skill points efficiently you are sort of forced to put them into Bluff since it is their only CHA skill. The fact that Charisma is not really good for much outside (for a sorc) of their casting stat is a definite drawback. All of this aside, I still think they are more fun than wizards. And bards are more fun than either of them.

[Mystic Muse]

WOTC of the coast.

who's wizards of the coast of the coast?

[nightwyrm]

They overvalued spontaneous casting when WotC first made 3e, and everything else they made afterwards just followed the model. Or rather, every other spontaneous caster that came afterwards used the sorc as the benchmark rather than the wizard.

[KurtKatze]

In our campaign (no powergaming :( ) I am playing a sorc. Me and our bard "share" the job of a wizard. She takes the fieldcontrol, I take the buffs and debuffs (and some blasting ;) ) so we 2 make 1 wizard... that really doesnt seem fair.

Sorc's can add meta magick on the fly, too. Which i think is very nice indeed. Of course you have to choose the Rapid Meta Magick feat on lvl 9 to overcome the increased casting time.

If you can get your dm to grant you earlier access to spells as well as some bonus feats the sorc makes a very good caster. Still inferior to the wizard but absolutely worthwhile playing.

[Ravens_cry]

who's wizards of the coast of the coast?

Members of the Redundant Union of Redundant Redundancy, Numbered number #333.3333*3

[Tokiko Mima]

If I'm the DM, I would take a cue from the Chameleon PrC's bonus feat Extra Spell trick.

At level 1, Sorcerers gain the ability, at the beginning of the day when they refresh their spells, to add a single spell to their spells known of up to level 3 or the highest level they can cast, whichever is lower of the two. They must possess a scroll or a spellbook with that spell in it, and the spell must be on the sorcerer's spell list. The scroll is not consumed if used this way and can still be consumed in the normal way.

When the Sorcerer refreshes his spells, this additional spell known is lost, but can be added again as long as the spellbook or scroll is still available.

At level 5, they gain another spell known in the same manner, that can be used up to level 5.

At level 10, they gain an additional spell known that can go up to level 7.

And at level 15, the additional spell known gained can be of any level the sorcerer can cast.

At level 20, as a capstone, the Sorcerer receives the ability to use Arcane Preparation (trade a spontaneous spell slot for a prepared spell) with any spell he has in spellbook or scroll form. He has to prepare them at the beginning of the day though, just like a wizard. He still has to have the Arcane Preparation feat if he wants to prepare spells from his normal sorcerer slots, however. This does not make the sorcerer a prepared spellcaster.

What I hope is that it might also make taking pure sorcerer levels worthwhile.

[RebelRogue]

I guess this is something they addressed in 4th, instead of having two different methods of spell casting you just get rid of sorcerers...grrrrr.

Errm... where have you been since March last year?

As for the difference in spell level progression, it's a case of WotC overestimating the power of spontaneous casting. When it comes to gauging relative power level between classes in 3.5 this is surely one of their smaller failures.

[taltamir]

who's wizards of the coast of the coast?

i can't believe i did that :)