Another Early Entry Shenanigan?

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Q91: Do bonus HD (temporarily) effect ECL and everything based off it?

A 91Yes. The benefits of extra HD are one of the reason they are granted as HD rather than simply temporary hit points. Note that temporary HD most likely do not carry a class, so they only affect character level, and not class level.

Since ECL is based of HD, that raises ECL which temporarily raises max skill rank limits as well... I think I am going to like my bard friend

Obligatory quotes:

Your maximum rank in a class skill is your character level + 3.

A creature’s Hit Dice total is also treated as its level for determining how spells affect the creature, its rate of natural healing, and its maximum ranks in a skill.

The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for 5 rounds thereafter. A creature inspired with greatness gains 2 bonus Hit Dice (d10s)

So a warforged bard in the party might help you get into those prestige classes two levels earlier. Throw Warrior Skald and Words of Creation in there and it gets useful (-4 levels @ level 4 w/ 4 feats). What do you guys think?

[ex cathedra]

Inspire Greatness + Psychic Reformation has been mentioned on these forums before. I recall recently reading the conversation regarding it here between... if I recall correctly, Doc Roc and Signmaker. It's been a while, though.

[Signmaker]

Inspire Greatness + Psychic Reformation has been mentioned on these forums before. I recall recently reading the conversation regarding it here between... if I recall correctly, Doc Roc and Signmaker. It's been a while, though.

That was on the ToSchat, but more or less broke down to "Well....I suppose it does work if the HD exists at the time of the skill point acquisition..."

More or less, yes. If you can retain your HD long enough to do whatever skill trick you do, and then lose the HD, your skill points remain locked.

Don't expect a DM to let it slide, though. Skill entry tricks open up far more troubles than early caster tricks. The two in conjunction is just a DM headache.

[Penitent]

Problem:

If Warforged stops singing for any reason you lose access to PrC levels (and the casting they grant) until you meet skill pre-reqs.

For a few levels in there, taking out the Warforged reduces the Wizard X/Archmage Y to a Wizard X. Losing about 4-6 levels of casting, and pretty much losing the fight.

Even more so, if the Forge stops singing, you lose all those spells until you rest for 8 hours to regain too.

[Signmaker]

Problem:

If Warforged stops singing for any reason you lose access to PrC levels (and the casting they grant) until you meet skill pre-reqs.

For a few levels in there, taking out the Warforged reduces the Wizard X/Archmage Y to a Wizard X. Losing about 4-6 levels of casting, and pretty much losing the fight.

Even more so, if the Forge stops singing, you lose all those spells until you rest for 8 hours to regain too.

Nope. Skill points aren't lost when you lose HD.* See: Energy Drain. Granted, WotC probably never saw this method as being possible, so your mileage may vary on how close it relates to energy drain/negative level resolution.

Additionally, there exists at least one feat that lets you exceed the HD cap for skills, if that sways your interpretation any.

**Technically, you can lose skill ranks if you're subjected to level loss. Whether this applies to the current situation? YMMV.

[ex cathedra]

Problem:

If Warforged stops singing for any reason you lose access to PrC levels (and the casting they grant) until you meet skill pre-reqs.

For a few levels in there, taking out the Warforged reduces the Wizard X/Archmage Y to a Wizard X. Losing about 4-6 levels of casting, and pretty much losing the fight.

Even more so, if the Forge stops singing, you lose all those spells until you rest for 8 hours to regain too.

I don't believe that there are rules that state that you lose skill ranks if you have more than the maximum. In fact, there are several sources of bonus skill ranks, and at least one of them explicitly allows having more than HD+3. So, it's quite likely that you wouldn't lose the skill allocation when the effect ends.

Edit:
Ninja.

[Kelb_Panthera]

What's this feat that lets you exceed the normal skill rank cap?

[Penitent]

Nope. Skill points aren't lost when you lose HD. See: Energy Drain. Granted, WotC probably never saw this method as being possible, so your mileage may vary on how close it relates to energy drain/negative level resolution.

Additionally, there exists at least one feat that lets you exceed the HD cap for skills, if that sways your interpretation any.

To quote skills: "Your maximum rank in a class skill is your character level + 3."

Not, "The Maximum number of skill points you can spend."

Maximum skill rank.

So if you are have only 7HD, you have a maximum of 10 ranks. It is literally impossible for someone with 7HD to 11 ranks in anything, because their maximum rank is 10.

[Signmaker]

What's this feat that lets you exceed the normal skill rank cap?

Primary Contact. It's...quite limited.

[Glimbur]

To quote skills: "Your maximum rank in a class skill is your character level + 3."

Not, "The Maximum number of skill points you can spend."

Maximum skill rank.

So if you are have only 7HD, you have a maximum of 10 ranks. It is literally impossible for someone with 7HD to 11 ranks in anything, because their maximum rank is 10.

So, it's legit to get bonus hit dice. It's legit to cast Psychic Reformation to move around your skill points. There is not a well established procedure for what happens when you lose the bonus hit dice. Since there aren't rules for it, we assume it does not happen.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Primary Contact. It's...quite limited.

That, and there's an item in LoM (the Codex of Something-or-other) that grants ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) above the level+3 maximum

[taltamir]

I don't believe that there are rules that state that you lose skill ranks if you have more than the maximum. In fact, there are several sources of bonus skill ranks, and at least one of them explicitly allows having more than HD+3. So, it's quite likely that you wouldn't lose the skill allocation when the effect ends.

Edit:
Ninja.

care to clarify about those tricks?

[olentu]

care to clarify about those tricks?

Primary contact in cityscape gives one a rank in an associated skill to the organization to which your contact belongs and some other stuff I recall. I also remember that the feat explicitly allows one to gain this bonus rank even it if would raise the skill above the HD+3 cap on skill ranks.

Edit: The codex anathema. It is a book that when read the reader gains 5 ranks in knowledge (dungeoneering), 2 in arcana and planes among other things. This book does not explicitly allow one to break the cap if I am reading it correctly.

[Tyndmyr]

What's this feat that lets you exceed the normal skill rank cap?

Cityscape has one that I know of. It's not a great feat, mind you, but it shows it can be done. More may exist, I dunno.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Pyschic Reformation already causes shudders from DMs, so for the record I was thinking this to be a long term thing (not a 1 shot shuffle)

I suppose it does work if the HD exists at the time of the skill point acquisition

Don't expect a DM to let it slide, though.

Exactly and I don't

If Warforged stops singing for any reason you lose access to PrC levels (and the casting they grant) until you meet skill pre-reqs.

Even more so, if the Forge stops singing, you lose all those spells until you rest for 8 hours to regain too.

I dig. This might back it more DM-acceptable

[2xMachina]

It's still pretty good.

You can be Wizard 1/MasterSpec/+++ (need also Pre Apprentice)

No one else can have that much PrC lvls.

[sofawall]

It's still pretty good.

You can be Wizard 1/MasterSpec/+++ (need also Pre Apprentice)

No one else can have that much PrC lvls.

Commoners can.

EDIT: Also, slightly behind ToS on this one.

[Sliver]

Now the question is, how to fit this into your backstory?

[2xMachina]

I'm an experiment by wizards to make the perfect wizard. *proceeds to stack templates that works RAW, but makes no sense*

[PhoenixRivers]

It's still pretty good.

You can be Wizard 1/MasterSpec/+++ (need also Pre Apprentice)

No one else can have that much PrC lvls.

Ex-Paladin 11 / Random PrC 9 / Blackguard 1 (Trade 11 paladin levels in for 11 blackguard levels)

100% PrC (at level 21)

[sofawall]

Ex-Paladin 11 / Random PrC 9 / Blackguard 1 (Trade 11 paladin levels in for 11 blackguard levels)

100% PrC (at level 21)

Isn't there some rule about no epic PrC until you have 20 levels in a base class, or am I misremembering the 20 levels to be something other than what it actually is (probably character level)?

[PhoenixRivers]

Isn't there some rule about no epic PrC until you have 20 levels in a base class, or am I misremembering the 20 levels to be something other than what it actually is (probably character level)?

You need to be ECL 21 to have epic PRC. Beyond that, no, no other requirements.

Though to have epic levels of base classes, you must have 20 previous levels in that base class.

[Aethir]

It's still pretty good.

You can be Wizard 1/MasterSpec/+++ (need also Pre Apprentice)

No one else can have that much PrC lvls.

Master Specialist requires Spellcraft and Knowledge Arcana at 5 ranks each for entry.

[PhoenixRivers]

Master Specialist requires Spellcraft and Knowledge Arcana at 5 ranks each for entry.

MMhmm. And, with Inspire Greatness, you can have that.

[Sliver]

Master Specialist requires Spellcraft and Knowledge Arcana at 5 ranks each for entry.

That is the entire point of this thread..

[Aethir]

Yes, but given that parameter change directly you can find several other PrCs that can be entered following level 1. His claim that nobody else can have that many prestige class levels is incorrect given the parameters as using temporary hit dice to raise the skill cap.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Edit: The codex anathema. It is a book that when read the reader gains 5 ranks in knowledge (dungeoneering), 2 in arcana and planes among other things. This book does not explicitly allow one to break the cap if I am reading it correctly.

Hmm, just rechecked my LoM and it appears you're right. I must be thinking of another tome somewhere, then, 'cause I could swear there was one that let you pass the cap. I might be just mixing it up with the Cityscape feats, though.

[2xMachina]

Yeah, I guess my wording is off. I should have said anyone not using this trick. (Though that might also be wrong, but I don't know of any Prc that can be entered at 1).

Doesn't PrCs need a base class at least? Blackguard does seem to be able to trade in everything though...

[PhoenixRivers]

Yeah, I guess my wording is off. I should have said anyone not using this trick. (Though that might also be wrong, but I don't know of any Prc that can be entered at 1).

Doesn't PrCs need a base class at least? Blackguard does seem to be able to trade in everything though...

You can use Racial HD to qualify. Many giants can go right into hulking hurler. Follow that at later levels with a true mind switch to a form without RHD (Half Ogre, for example), and you can have 100% PrC as well.

[olentu]

Hmm I recall a class that stacked with paladin levels for the purposes of abilities one gets when going blackguard. If it was worded correctly one could trade in all paladin levels pre-epic.