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Thread: All The Best Heroes Are Bards
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2010-01-16, 12:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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All The Best Heroes Are Bards
Before I start, let me note that I have never actually played a bard. This is all just from having looked at the class. Now, having said that... PEACH
This is something I was thinking about as I listened to some classical music tonight - as far as I know, all Disney movies have musical numbers in them (and a lot of other good movies do as well), and in most cases the music serves to provide insight into a character, build a relationship between characters, or advance the plot. Take Aladdin for example, in the scene where Aladdin and Jasmine sing "A Whole New World." Imagine for a moment that Aladdin were a DnD bard, and he started singing, using fascinate while he did so to get the princess's interest. Similarly, with a bard's slew of abilities and skill points, the bard class can double as a rogue, or "street rat" (as several people call Aladdin).
That's just one example. But I think it's a good template in general - a bard's goal lead his allies in adventure, support them when they need help, stop the bad guy, save the world, and get the girl. Most fantasy heroes are the same. And the bard class itself - with medium BAB, good reflex and will saves, decent weapon selection, armor proficiency, even the ability to cast spells (and in armor no less!) - is a well-rounded class that can go in a lot of different directions. Its one failing may be the mediocre hit points, but not all heroes are the kind who charge into battle with the sole intention of slaying everyone that comes between them and their goal (in fact, I'd venture to say that outside of video-games, very few are).
And specifically with regards to spells, bards also have a variety of spells that serve them in battle, utility, and social situations. Grease, sleep, alarm, animate rope, charm person, and comprehend languages (among others - too many to list here) are all bard spells that would be useful in a number of real-life situations (of the sort that tend to happen in fantasy epics).
While it's not the best as far as most optimizers are concerned (the ones that don't optimize diplomacy anyway), the bard is a reasonable first choice when it comes to choosing classes. Like most heroes in the great fantasy stories, the bard is a leader - someone who can draw people together and support them in reaching their goals for the greater good. And it's rated as a Tier 3 class - the same as swordsage in case you're wondering - so it's certainly not all bad.
Put simply, bards can usually do many things moderately well, and with a little effort they can do a few things very well.
And that all has to do with roll-playing. Role-playing, as the other half of the game (or more, depending on your DM) deserves mention too. To start off with, bards have the best plot reasons for doing just about anything! Just say "it makes for a great story!" and you're set to go. And if you should happen to meet up with a few savvy adventurers who you can convince to join you, gain some experience by overcoming a slew of difficulties, get involved in a romantic relationship, and maybe save the world - why, that's all just icing on the cake.
And don't let that first possibility fool you - how many happy groups of wandering adventurers would ever come together in the first place if it weren't for a charismatic leader to guide them like the bard? Sure, there's those rare groups of people who recognize that they share a common purpose and need to travel together for awhile - but like most online MMORPGs (which I reference with the idea that most people reading this have played one), once that purpose is done - defeating an enemy (note: OOTS), exploring a dungeon, or collecting some treasure - the group tends to disperse. But if someone like a bard can convince people to stay - that they're better off together than apart - why then who knows what could happen?
Think, if you know the game, of the main character of Suikoden. He's the guiding star, who is destined to bring other people together in order to defeat a great enemy - and that's exactly what he does. While not exceptional at any one thing himself, the hero attracts people to him, and together they build an army that eventually manages to bring down the oppressive and corrupt empire that he grew up in.
Think again, of the main character of Final Fantasy VIII - Squall. You could argue that he's more of a spellsword or somesuch class, but fluffwise remember how he is the one who guides the group, who everyone looks to when their home and sense of purpose has crumbled away, and who eventually does save the girl he loves and then the world along with it - and looking cool while doing it.
Say what you will about bards - they can't hit as hard as a fighter, they can't cast spells as good as any full-casting class, they can't fully utilize a ton of useful skills like the rogue, but don't knock the bard class, because all the best heroes are bards.
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2010-01-16, 12:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: All The Best Heroes Are Bards
This might be just me, here, but I always thought the main thing of that particular series is that it's a toss-up of whether it's
Spoilerthe True Rune the main character possesses that gives him this presence and his 'star status'...
...Or if the main character is Just That Good. It could also be both. Or Fate. Still, it's an interesting thought. The world could use more theatrical main characters.Last edited by Belobog; 2010-01-16 at 12:40 AM.
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2010-01-16, 12:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: All The Best Heroes Are Bards
Not all leaders have to be bards though. What you're saying implies that leaders are almost always bards. Paladins, clerics, and sorcerers often have great Charisma too.
I agree that bards make a good hero--usually. Aladdin is a stretch. Not once did he seem to use a magical ability (other than getting Genie and the magic carpet, etc.--magic items) that I remember. The singing could be explained by...good Perform, or just a good voice.
Not sure about the other examples.
Also, look at the Greeks. Out of the Greek heroes I remember, the ones that were my favorites were not singers/spellcasters in any regards.
Same with a lot of literature.Homebrew
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2010-01-16, 12:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: All The Best Heroes Are Bards
And don't forget, the bard has Tumble and Balance as class skills, which are great for all kinds of heroic exploits. He's basically the core Swashbuckler.
The music certainly isn't the only thing that makes a bard -- as you note, the skills, saves, weapons, armor, and spells (which could be refluffed as just bursts of heroism) make for a nice well-rounded mythic/cinematic hero type.
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2010-01-16, 01:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: All The Best Heroes Are Bards
I agree on a lot of your points though.
Captain Jack Sparrow probably had a level or two of bard. Maybe a spell-less variant? Or maybe he took the spells that just boost Jump or something. Or charm person, etc.
Interesting...Last edited by Temotei; 2010-01-16 at 05:56 PM.
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2010-01-16, 01:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: All The Best Heroes Are Bards
All the best heroes are bards.
And all the best bards are straight.
Which is funny, since stereotypically gay guys do acting and singing a lot more than straight guys do.
...So why are most actors ostensibly straight?
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2010-01-16, 01:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: All The Best Heroes Are Bards
Bards. So you can't kill like a fighter, steal like a rogue, heal like a cleric, or cast like a wizard. Who cares? You always get the wine, women, song.
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2010-01-16, 01:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: All The Best Heroes Are Bards
A bard that does as little talking as he can get away with?
Blasphemy!
Also, while you make some good points, please allow me this small rebuttal.
That is all. Thank you.People seemed to like this better, but only marginally so - the way one might prefer to be stabbed than shot. Optimally, one isn't stabbed or shot. Optimally, one eats some cake! But there are times when cake is not available, and instead we are destroyed. This is the deep poetry of the universe. -- Tycho Brahe
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2010-01-16, 02:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: All The Best Heroes Are Bards
Wrong, for the most part. With a little optimization and use of a few splat books, bards can deal insane damage both on their own but also improving their ally's damage by a large margin as well. Sublime Chord grants you up to level 9 spells and fairly good ones at that, a quick dip into crusader gives you Song of the White Raven (swift inspire courage), Snowflake Wardance for some pretty nifty increased weapon damage (+Cha mod to weapon damage per perform rank), Words of Creation (doubles inspire courage bonus), Song of the Heart (+1 inspire courage), Dragonfire Inspiration (+1d6 fire damage per point of inspire courage increase, which ), Seeker of the Song Prc (2 level dip to combine inspire courage and inspire greatness), and other boosts allow the bard to deal insane melee damage while still buffing his party. I've seen weapon bonuses something +12+Cha to attack and +15+10d6 damage per attack on a mid level bard.
Edit: Just ignore me, I really need to get some sleep.Last edited by Vaynor; 2010-01-16 at 02:55 AM.
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2010-01-16, 02:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-01-16, 03:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-01-16, 03:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: All The Best Heroes Are Bards
I disagree. The best Heroes are Factotums.
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2010-01-16, 03:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: All The Best Heroes Are Bards
Weird thing.
In Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, the small, street smart guy with some magical training?
Probably not a bard.
The seven foot tall barbarian with a longsword and an axe?
No magic, but the guy does a fair deal of singing, some of everything, can play a crowd...Remember how I was wishing for the peace of oblivion a minute ago?
Yeah. That hasn't exactly changed with more knowledge of the situation. -Security Chief Victor Jones, formerly of the UESC Marathon.
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2010-01-16, 03:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: All The Best Heroes Are Bards
Actually, bards are terrible heroes. They're just the only ones who can make up their own publicity for it.
Think about it. How do the tales of the heroes' epic deeds get spread around? Bards! Who writes the songs of valor in the face of impending doom? Bards! Even the 'magical effects' of their music can be easily explained! Who here hasn't become excited or had goosebumps from an awesome/moving song. Extra accuracy and jumping ability? Just your standard adrenline rush. Enemies have negative effects? Sad, slow music that leaves you feeling depressed and drained.
Seriously, why share the credit with the rest of your party, when you can take it all for yourself and look like the greatest hero ever? Why admit all you did was play an inspiring or depressing song, when you can say you have 'magical music powers'? And as for the few spells they can cast? They're just weak sorcerers who don't have the amount of power as others.
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2010-01-16, 10:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: All The Best Heroes Are Bards
The best heroes are Bards in 3E terms?
John Carter, Elric of Melnibone, Red Kane, Conan the Cimmerian, Holger Karlsen, King Arthur, Aragorn and Sam Gamgee want a word with you...
That said, remove their sappy "induce musical interlude" powers, refluff bardic magic as scene-stealing stunts rather than being the work of a ponce with a mandolin, and the bard is the classic swashbuckler.
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2010-01-16, 10:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: All The Best Heroes Are Bards
@Kris Strife
As a bard you're not just an adventurer, you're gentelmen adventurer.
(not exactly, but sort of like him)In a war it doesn't matter who's right, only who's left.
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2010-01-16, 10:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: All The Best Heroes Are Bards
really alladin wasn't a hero... just kinda got thrusted into that position
Most heroes are not bards, most heroes are conned into being heroes by bards -_-;;;
in a party of 4-5 1 will be a bard... and if they all go on the same adventure then only 1/4 to 1/5 of the great heroes are bards :p
edit: the best heroes are monks... look at any Jackie Chan movie :DLast edited by Evard; 2010-01-16 at 10:30 AM.
I have to give Paizo credit...
They took an established work and said they fixed it but didn't actually fix it and yet still made money off from it.
How can you beat that?
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2010-01-16, 12:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-01-16, 12:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-01-16, 01:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: All The Best Heroes Are Bards
Even without refluffling, you could quite well take Perform (Oratory) as the skill, where the Bard uses Inspire Courage by shouting some defiant challenge at the creature of evil. Pretty classic staple of movies, literature, etc.
But for those who want to use music, why not? Why is it any more sappy or silly or "ponce"-y than muttering nonsense syllables and waving your hands? It's just a kind of magic. The bard plays a single chord and power surges through his allies. Works for me.
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2010-01-16, 01:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-01-16, 01:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: All The Best Heroes Are Bards
Remember how I was wishing for the peace of oblivion a minute ago?
Yeah. That hasn't exactly changed with more knowledge of the situation. -Security Chief Victor Jones, formerly of the UESC Marathon.
X-Com avatar by BRC. He's good folks.
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2010-01-16, 01:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: All The Best Heroes Are Bards
No. NO.
Conan was a level 20 gestalt Fighter/Bonus Feat Rogue in a world where every other character is forced to play by E6 rules.
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2010-01-16, 01:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: All The Best Heroes Are Bards
bards are surprisingly powerful...
I don't get why people always rag on them...I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman!
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2010-01-16, 01:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-01-16, 01:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: All The Best Heroes Are Bards
The best heroes: factotums. You can do some of everything.
Conan: Gestalt Warblade//Feat Rogue
Also real warriors have max ranks in Perform (Oratory), just ask a viking.Peanut Half-Dragon Necromancer by Kurien.
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2010-01-16, 02:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: All The Best Heroes Are Bards
alright, so many things to comment
actors are rarely gay??? seriously , the ratio between straight and gay is reversed in theater and musicals (1/10)
hollywood actors and singers are often gay too, it's just not good for business when they are (how long did it take people to realize Ricky Martin was gay? and what has he done since?)
Alladin was no bard, he's just a rogue with ranks in Perform and UMD
the best heroes
Chuck, maybe Batman : only Factotum heroes I can think of, sorry but Factotums are rarely heroes but often sidekicks
Barbarian heroes: Conan , Superman (with an ECL +20 race), nearly every guy in the 13th Warrior
Figther: Achilles, Ajax, the 300 , a couple of guys in the 13th warrior, nearly every guy in a war movie
Monk/unarmed swordsage: Jackie Chan, Bruce Lee, sometimes Jean-Claude Van Damne ,Jet Li, Chuck Norris
Paladins: Charlemagne (with lots of Leadership feats), Joan of Arc (with Saint template), Roland, Lancelot (fallen), every other member of the round table
Cleric: that priest that used a mace to go on a crusade (which inspired the class in the first place)
Rogue: nearly every lead in a caper movie
Swashbuckler: cape and sword genre movies, musketeers
Rangers: Rambo (favored ennemy: human), a few war movies leads
Bard: ...?
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2010-01-16, 02:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: All The Best Heroes Are Bards
Those are all monks...
unarmed swordsages can shoot fire from their punches and the like... aka, all the mortal combat guys, street fighter guys, etc...
chun li is an unarmed swordsage, jet li is a monk. And that is debatable because they are not killing people with every punch... most are just fighter WITHOUT the improved unarmed strike feat and a refusal to use a real weapon.
As far as bard being none... why? you seem to say "unarmed fighter is monk"... superman raging I can somehow see as he can throw off cryptonite when angry (improved fort save? aka, increase in con?)...
clerics paladins and rangers all got magic spells, so does bard. If his music isn't magic then what else does the class do? it is a mediocre fighter that travels and tells stories and entertains... they do not have to perform in music, they can dance or drum or whatever.
Most heroes are an amalgam of various classes and cannot be put into any one single class.
superman was an expert (lots of skill points but essentially an NPC class) with an ECL +N race. (N being at least 20, I am thinking easily over 50)...
think about it, nothing he could ever face would be a challenge enough to give him XP; and his "day job" wasn't something amazing like wizard or even soldier (remember wolverine was an actual soldier)... no he went to college, got a degree in liberal arts, and went to work as a news reporter...Last edited by taltamir; 2010-01-16 at 02:32 PM.
I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman!
the glass is always 100% full. Approximately 50% of its volume is full of dihydrogen monoxide and some dissolved solutes, and approx 50% a mixture of gasses known as "air" which contains roughly (by volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, and trace amounts of other gases.
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2010-01-16, 02:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: All The Best Heroes Are Bards
all the monk/swordsage I've mentioned have played fists of flame or other magic properties at one point except Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee... you just need to watch more Chinese cinema
while it's true you can't put most heroes in classes sometimes it applies
and if you lack the wisdom you can't cast spells and there are non-spellcasting variantsLast edited by Soranar; 2010-01-16 at 02:34 PM.
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2010-01-16, 02:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: All The Best Heroes Are Bards
Lets not forget Indiana Jones, who's a pretty awesome factotum