12-14 Inteligence...how "above average" is it?

[Giegue]

I have heard a lot of mixed things about intelligence in my days playing D&D. I know that anything above 10 intelligence is "above average," but exactly how above average would a character with 12 or 14 intelligence be? The reason I ask is because I have found conflicting opinions on this. On one forum, people where saying that the majority of people on there, who where quite smart, would be in the 12-14 range. Likewise, I have heard that the 12-14 range is rather dumb despite being "above average." So my question is where is whether or not a character in the 12-14 int range is smart or not. I don't mean rocket scientist level or super genius or anything like that. I mean smart like enough to score good grades if they tried and be able to plan and be strategic.

[Sucrose]

They are easily smart enough to get good grades and plan well (heck, people down to an 8 Int can do it if they apply themselves enough. 6 is where it begins to get a bit sketchy.). A person with 14 Intelligence could, with sufficient training, be a rather good rocket scientist, if not a leader in his field.

[bosssmiley]

The old thumbnail equivalent back in AD&D days (when stats more closely followed the 3d6 bell curve, and were hard-capped at 25) used to be "Int score x 10 = IQ".

[deuxhero]

Which breaks down when
1.You got scores over 20
2.You realize the system was invented in the 1900s and is very out of place in almost any setting.

That said, note that a +2 int bonus means you have acess to a slightly wider portfolio of know:skills.

[Soranar]

Actually, DnD is pretty accurate in it's description of Intelligence

natural intelligence helps you learn quickly (more skillpoints) but you're still restricted by your experience (how long you spend learning/using that particular field) and sometimes your wisdom also affects a particular skill (in DnD they kept skills from using multiple mental stats to simplify things but in real life you usually use a combination of them)

yet your bonus also gives you insight someone with similar experience wouldn't have (INT bonus applied to skill)

so the result

say a doctor is average in INT (10) yet has 20 years of experience (level 20 doctor) he is still way better at it than a genius who just started to learn about it

INT 18 guy, say level 4, and medical knowledge is a cross class skill as he never went to medical school, his skill result is much much lower despite the fact that technically he's "dumber" than the genius

add that to the fact that Intelligence is a multifaceted trait (INT/WIS) and you can see how complicated it is to apply

but yeah, truly high INT (like 18 and up) should be really rare, something like 1-2% of the population if you trust IQ tests

[juggalotis]

on the occasions when i dm i put it to my players as 10 is "average for the time" with the fantasy medieval time frame i assume the common folk have no formal education and are only world wise. so a 10 intelligence would be an average person who has recieved no education. i find this usually works out quite well.

[Eldariel]

Which breaks down when
1.You got scores over 20

While the measurement is an issue, ratio IQ is effectively uncapped so scores over 20 are not a problem.

[Tengu_temp]

There is no correlation between IQ and DND Intelligence - it makes no sense that tactical feats require you to have 130 IQ, or that your IQ increases with age.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

I was always taught that Int was the better stat to transform into "real life", as the average Int in D&D (10-11) matches the average IQ between Earth humans (100-110). So Int 12-14 would be a rather clever person with an IQ of 120-140. And Int 18 would be the maximun possible to a "normal person" in D&D, as in the Earth (IQ 180 it's supposed to be maximum).

Of course, it happens that a bunch of people in history had an IQ of more than 180, but that's because they leveled up and increased Int as their favored stat.

[EDIT: I also doubt anyone with an Int of 18 / 180 IQ spends so much time here discussing about it ]

[Dr_S]

IQ relates SOLELY to your ability to reason and work out problems...
My understanding is that IQ in real life is more like wisdom and knowledge in real life is int. (Intelligence and Knowledge are far from the same thing)

[ericgrau]

I don't think every average Joe is 10 on the dot. I'd say 12 is still "average". It's slightly better but not noticeably so unless you carefully test him. 14 is "smart", like a scientist or nerd or gifted student or so on. Many heroes might even have 14 as their high stat, and be noticeably better than a commoner. You don't have to roll that low on 4d6 drop 1 for this to happen. Other stat generating methods are a bit more powerful though.

[Flickerdart]

I don't think every average Joe is 10 on the dot. I'd say 12 is still "average". It's slightly better but not noticeably so unless you carefully test him. 14 is "smart", like a scientist or nerd or gifted student or so on. Many heroes might even have 14 as their high stat, and be noticeably better than a commoner. You don't have to roll that low on 4d6 drop 1 for this to happen. Other stat generating methods are a bit more powerful though.

"Average joe" stats are 10, 10, 10, 11, 11, 11 for all species, in any order, per MM. 12 is the second highest stat of the nonelite array that's given to people with NPC class levels. Joe Commoner with the average array is going to be dumber by 5% than Jim Expert who took a 12 in INT. Is that noticeable? Only in the long run. Does it mean that Jim can hit results that Joe never could? Yes, and that makes all the difference. A 14 is a 10% increase, and so noticeably better, the difference between an A and a B on a test. That 5% might not make a difference that's immediately apparent, yes.

Actually, DnD is pretty accurate in it's description of Intelligence

natural intelligence helps you learn quickly (more skillpoints) but you're still restricted by your experience (how long you spend learning/using that particular field) and sometimes your wisdom also affects a particular skill (in DnD they kept skills from using multiple mental stats to simplify things but in real life you usually use a combination of them)

yet your bonus also gives you insight someone with similar experience wouldn't have (INT bonus applied to skill)

so the result

say a doctor is average in INT (10) yet has 20 years of experience (level 20 doctor) he is still way better at it than a genius who just started to learn about it

INT 18 guy, say level 4, and medical knowledge is a cross class skill as he never went to medical school, his skill result is much much lower despite the fact that technically he's "dumber" than the genius

add that to the fact that Intelligence is a multifaceted trait (INT/WIS) and you can see how complicated it is to apply

but yeah, truly high INT (like 18 and up) should be really rare, something like 1-2% of the population if you trust IQ tests

A doctor with 20 years of experience isn't a lvl 20 doctor. He's, at best, level 5. A level 20 doctor would find cures for cancer behind his couch on a daily basis, and wouldn't bother using an elevator because he could just jump out of his window. Besides, WIS affects the Heal skill, not INT.

[Douglas]

If you insist on trying to equate D&D intelligence with real life IQ, the appropriate distribution mapping (assuming the general population gets 3d6) is 10.5 int = 100 IQ, and +1 int = +5 IQ. Thus, a 12 int person would have about 110 IQ, and a 14 int person would have about 120 IQ.

Without bringing IQ into it specifically, if the general population has an intelligence distribution reasonably simulated by 3d6 then a person with 12-14 intelligence is smarter than about 5/6 of the population and less smart than the remaining 1/6.

[ericgrau]

...the difference between an A and a B on a test. That 5% might not make a difference that's immediately apparent, yes.

Which is exactly what I said. You'd have to test to notice the difference. Otherwise an int of 12 appears average in most situations. 14 OTOH is noticeably smart, "heroic" by the concept behind normally rolled stats.

EDIT: Oh, btw, 12 is the 4th stat in an elite array. If you roll slightly low so that 14 is your high stat, then 12 might be your 3rd stat.

[Soranar]

A doctor with 20 years of experience isn't a lvl 20 doctor. He's, at best, level 5. A level 20 doctor would find cures for cancer behind his couch on a daily basis, and wouldn't bother using an elevator because he could just jump out of his window. Besides, WIS affects the Heal skill, not INT.

if you answer a particular post, you should read all of it (like when I mention real life has a mesh of INT and WIS,possibly even CHA) for any skill

besides, doctor would be a commoner class with only skill progressions (cause outside Chuck Norris and a few other exceptions I don't think many people have more than 10 hitpoints)

There's also the fact that in real life you don't get smarter from beating people up (or killing them)

[Harperfan7]

If you insist on trying to equate D&D intelligence with real life IQ, the appropriate distribution mapping (assuming the general population gets 3d6) is 10.5 int = 100 IQ, and +1 int = +5 IQ. Thus, a 12 int person would have about 110 IQ, and a 14 int person would have about 120 IQ.

Without bringing IQ into it specifically, if the general population has an intelligence distribution reasonably simulated by 3d6 then a person with 12-14 intelligence is smarter than about 5/6 of the population and less smart than the remaining 1/6.

This is how I always saw it. Because really, an 18 isn't supposed to be the best ever, it's just the best a completely unexperienced normal person is capable of being naturally. It also allows for people like Goethe with their 30ish int to still realistically possible with the IQ curve.

[Deepblue706]

As a general rule of thumb for 3e, I rule every +1 to INT modifier as approximately one standard deviation in IQ above the norm.

As such, you'll notice some people are a little brighter, others a little more dull, but in the end anyone between 8 and 13 turns out to be well within the norm.

I'd say 14 is the baseline for those who stand out for high intelligence.

[taltamir]

The old thumbnail equivalent back in AD&D days (when stats more closely followed the 3d6 bell curve, and were hard-capped at 25) used to be "Int score x 10 = IQ".

that is explicitly NOT how it works...
int 3 is smart enough to know how to read, write, and speak fluently in common, and are describe as not very intelligent, but still of humanlike intelligence.

Int 3 is about 80IQ (above the mental retardation line). Int 10 is average intelligence and thus must be 100IQ.

IF you extrapolate that. int 17 would be 120IQ...
problem with that is that there are incongruities, for example going from int 3 to int2 is a HUGE jump in intelligence level.

There is also the problem that the difference between int 9 and int 10 is more then the difference between int 10 and 11...

IQ = intelligence quotient. It is calculated by taking your academic capabilities, assigning them the "age" of the average human at achieving such a level, and then dividing by your real age and multiplying by 100.
So a 20 year old with an IQ of 80 means that they have 80% of the academic achievements someone their age should have.
A 10 year old with academic capabilities equal to that of a 17 year old has an IQ of 170.

For an IQ120 person, they would be at the level of a 6th grade student (age 12) at 4th grade (age 10).

IQ was developed for finding problem students and giving them remedial classes, NOT for finding genius; there have been 6 versions of the IQ tests, and all the people who worked on it all were very explicit about it NOT being an indication of how smart you are, or how stupid, but only a useful tool for finding people who have fallen behind academically for assignment of remedial courses.
IQ has no meaning at all once you have finished school.

[Deepblue706]

That's an interesting perspective, taltamir. I think I like that viewpoint more than the alternatives...

[ericgrau]

A 3 int is only technically able to learn how to read and write, and technically can speak. That doesn't mean he doesn't suck at it, or that he actually will learn to read and write if he's not an adventurer.

[taltamir]

A 3 int is only technically able to learn how to read and write, and technically can speak. That doesn't mean he doesn't suck at it, or that he actually will learn to read and write if he's not an adventurer.

by the raw every CREATURE with an int3 knows how to read and write in common unless he is a barbarian :)

besides which, people with 80 IQ are "kinda bad at it"...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_...on#IQ_below_70

Class IQ
Profound mental retardation Below 20
Severe mental retardation 20–34
Moderate mental retardation 35–49
Mild mental retardation 50–69
Borderline intellectual functioning 70–80

[ericgrau]

Every PC. Saying every commoner can read and write falls under "rulee unspecified", and I find it to be a bit dubious of a claim. Even with PCs it's a bit of a corner case. Specifying an int for free literacy would have added another near-pointless rule.

[Mando Knight]

int 3 is smart enough to know how to read, write, and speak fluently in common, and are describe as not very intelligent, but still of humanlike intelligence.

Int 3 is about 80IQ (above the mental retardation line). Int 10 is average intelligence and thus must be 100IQ.

I don't think so. Int 3 is explicitly the lowest possible intelligence to be considered "human-like." The fluency and literacy in common is an artifact of the game requiring player characters to be able to communicate somehow. Note that only a Barbarian is illiterate without taking the "illiterate" flaw.

[taltamir]

Every PC. Saying every commoner can read and write falls under "rulee unspecified", and I find it to be a bit dubious of a claim. Even with PCs it's a bit of a corner case. Specifying an int for free literacy would have added another near-pointless rule.

Allow me to quoteth the SRD

Originally Posted by SRD
Intelligence
A creature can speak all the languages mentioned in its description, plus one additional language per point of Intelligence bonus. Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted otherwise).

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm

[Tinydwarfman]

3 can speak fluently? I seem to remember anyone below 9 cannot communicate properly... and besides, don't horses and other animal have an IQ of 2? if there is a scale, it is certainly only linear to a point.

[Geddoe]

12-14 would be clever enough that things come easily to them but it is easy for them to overestimate themselves. They may not see why they aren't as clever as the 16-18 int people of the world. I used to see myself as exceptionally clever, but I now realize that I am not as above average as I thought in intelligence. I'm not sure I would even qualify for Combat Expertise.

Almost anybody who would give themselves above a 15 for Int on a stat yourself topic(because of IQ, grades, education or whatever) is probably in the 12-14 range most of the time.

[Ormur]

Does it say commoners can automatically read and write?

[Flickerdart]

Does it say commoners can automatically read and write?

"A literate character (anyone but a barbarian who has not spent skill points to become literate) can read and write any language she speaks. Each language has an alphabet, though sometimes several spoken languages share a single alphabet."
A literate "character", not a PC. An NPC is still a non-player "character". Commoners speak Common, and thus can read and write in Common.

[hamishspence]

In Faerun, its very dependant on how civilized the group is. Sun Elves, for example, have everything except barbarians be literate. At the other end of the scale, mountain orcs have only PC classes other than barbarian be literate.

So whether commoners are literate or not can depend on the setting (generally, in Races of Faerun, most commoners are not literate, and often, the other NPC classes aren't either).

[TheCountAlucard]

...A literate character (anyone but a barbarian who has not spent skill points to become literate) can read and write any language she speaks...

Wow, so as statted out, horses are literate? (They just don't have a language that they speak to actually read/write.)

That is awesome.