Fixing Elves

[taltamir]

Elves are a problem race, they are simply vastly inferior to humans in every way shape or form.

The big problem is that elves live close a 1000 years.
Imagine if einstein, neuton, galileo, leonardo de vinchy, galen, and pretty much every other famous researcher, inventor, engineer, or artist did not die of age before the age of 100?
neuton invented calculus... he started working on physics and noticed that known math is not capable of doing what he wanted... so he just sat down and invented calculus... then he used that to practically invent modern physics. Imagine what he could do in 1000 years..
Heck even programmers, or linguistics experts could achieve so much in a thousand years... you know there was a man who was inventing a mechanical computer in the 1700s? and a woman wrote the first program for it before it was even completed?...

Elves are also made to be immune to disease in fantasy, but that is not represented by their racial stats in DnD... if they have a low birth rate and are as susceptible to disease they would go extict. Few elves would reach 120 to start breeding with one baby every 60 years if they are just as susceptible to disease as humans are... Disease is pretty big for humans, many famous humans died from disease just as they are starting to do something great; or just before they finished.

Humans have to be vastly superior to a race so slow that it takes 120 years to reach the mental maturity, intelligence, and educational background of an 18 year old human. An elven mage of 500 years is somehow only as skilled as a 50 year old human... way to go claiming "elven superiority"

How could you possibly explain that elves are so rare and backwards yet supposedly so advanced?

If you say elves live to the same age as humans, are as susceptible to disease, and are as fertile... all problems are solved. Elves are just pointy eared humans with a penchant for magic.

Which is another issue, the elves are written in the fluff to be immortal (disease free) and good at magic... their crunch gives them sleep immunity, nothing about disease, and nothing good for magic. instead they get "detect secret doors and traps automatically, not sleep, and +dex -con"... elves make the perfect rogues but damn terrible wizards. This needs to change.

The Elf Remade:
Medium size.
An elf’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Magic Affinity: +1 racial bonus to effective caster level in any magic using class.
Automatic Languages: Common, Elven. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Sylvan.
Favored Class: Wizard.

Elves are humans with pointy ears that are naturally attuned to magic. they sleep normally, see normally, hear normally, age normally, etc. Their only differences compared to a human are described above.

A half-elf half-human is born with either the human fast learning trait (bonus feat and extra skillpoints), or with the magic affinity.

Elves who live in the forest, seashore, the sun, the moon, the gray, etc are identical to the above template, although they might have different colored skin, hair, eyes, and subtly different facial features. (aka, superficial differences like the various human races)

With the exception of Drow who gain infravision, but are blinded by light. In effect, they see normally in darkness and can't see in the light.

[kamikasei]

If you say elves live to the same age as humans, are as susceptible to disease, and are as fertile... all problems are solved. Elves are just pointy eared humans with a penchant for magic

They don't sound much like elves any more, though.

[Dienekes]

How could you possibly explain that elves are so rare and backwards yet supposedly so advanced?

Easy. Elves are a lot older, they're just inferior in about every way and have very little imagination. Picture them as particularly long lived proto-Neanderthals (No idea if this is a real thing, just roll with it) something about them simply doesn't push them forward. The people who developed their now "perfect" system are the few genetic outliers.

When they go on about how humans are inferior or can't be trusted simply ignore them, and let them try so hard to make themselves look mystical while humans keep developing their society.

Really though, don't try and look at D&D or even most fantasy with a too cynical eye. If you did you'd end in the Tippyverse and personally that's not the kind of world I enjoy reading or playing in.

[Touchy]

They don't sound much like elves any more, though.

They sound like humans who look like elves but don't have a superiority complex.
Sounds good enough for me.

[ericgrau]

They get the near equivalent of iron will for free (though dwarfs get a +2 to all 3 saves most of the time) and they're pretty good at skill things with their bonuses and "my elf sense is tingling" ability. IMO give more skill based challenges, especially secret doors, or else drop the skill bonuses and "elf sense" in exchange for something more combat oriented.

Nixing long life is more of a fluff thing for most campaigns, but yeah it works.

[Grumman]

Why on earth would you want to make them "just pointy eared humans"? That's not fixing them, that's ruining them.

My own suggestion is to use the fixed age of adulthood from Races of the Wild (20 instead of 110), and to assume that elves are fewer in number, but have a higher proportion of high-level characters. Where non-adventuring humans might reach a maximum of level 5, non-adventuring elves might get up to level 10.

Edit: I'd give them all Elf Dilettante as a bonus feat too, for an effective minimum of one skill point in everything.

[Zore]

They are also like the worst race ever now, especially those Drow who I would possibly assign a Negative LA because they are so bad. Couldn't you just change the fluff or I dunno give them meaningful racial traits to correspond to their new fluff instead of taking everything and giving them a joke trait?

[leon666]

They sound like humans who look like elves but don't have a superiority complex.
Sounds good enough for me.

Seconded

[Reinboom]

You know... you can have a sufficiently mathematical and advanced civilization. A civilization who has discovered 0, has an advanced and accurate astronomical calender, calculates the movement of the stars, has a form of calculus, uses base 16 instead of base 10, and ponders on P vs NP...
Without having a modern technology.
Case in point: Incans, Mayans.

With the help of random beasts attacking kingdoms, and gods smiting myth drannor... you have a theme of recurring build up and let down, where they won't be dedicated wholly to invention either.

This is the backdrop I tend to prefer for elves. And solves most of the supposed issues rather cleanly. That is, let them be good at such things.

[taltamir]

They are also like the worst race ever now, especially those Drow who I would possibly assign a Negative LA because they are so bad. Couldn't you just change the fluff or I dunno give them meaningful racial traits to correspond to their new fluff instead of taking everything and giving them a joke trait?

actually, they are the best race ever now...
every optimizer will tell you that magic = power.
Elves are supposedly highly magical... one of their problems is that they were designed to be rogues, not mages.

I gave them: Magic Affinity: +1 racial bonus to effective caster level in any magic using class.

[Dienekes]

They sound like humans who look like elves but don't have a superiority complex.
Sounds good enough for me.

Ehh, being more in tune with magic and nature would probably have them develop the superiority complex anyhow.

[taltamir]

when consolidating my arguments I accidently left off a line... I edited it in... it was supposed to be:

Which is another issue, the elves are written in the fluff to be immortal (disease free) and good at magic... their crunch gives them sleep immunity, nothing about disease, and nothing good for magic. instead they get "detect secret doors and traps automatically, not sleep, and +dex -con"... elves make the perfect rogues but damn terrible wizards. This needs to change.

[Zore]

actually, they are the best race ever now...
every optimizer will tell you that magic = power.
Elves are supposedly highly magical... one of their problems is that they were designed to be rogues, not mages.

I gave them: Magic Affinity: +1 racial bonus to effective caster level in any magic using class.

+1 ECL vs. a feat and skillpoints. Or +Casting stat to make my spells hit harder. Or +Con so I don't crumple like tissue paper on the two or three hits that do get through. Or play a gnome who gets this and other racial abilities. Hmm, tough choice there. A +1 bonus doesn't really cut it because its trivial to pump up your caster level.

[Vizzerdrix]

I agree. ALL elves should be fixed. Someone call the vet and get my my hedge clippers.

actually, they are the best race ever now...
every optimizer will tell you that magic = power.
Elves are supposedly highly magical... one of their problems is that they were designed to be rogues, not mages.

I gave them: Magic Affinity: +1 racial bonus to effective caster level in any magic using class.

.....So what your saying is we should grind them up for spell components? At least for those races that want to do something meaningful with magic. other than sit up a tree

[taltamir]

+1 ECL vs. a feat and skillpoints. Or +Casting stat to make my spells hit harder. Or +Con so I don't crumple like tissue paper on the two or three hits that do get through. Or play a gnome who gets this and other racial abilities. Hmm, tough choice there. A +1 bonus doesn't really cut it because its trivial to pump up your caster level.

no they don't, and no it isn't.

An Ioun stone of +1 to CL is 30,000gp. thats the only method to do so in the SRD.

gnomes get: Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against illusion spells cast by gnomes. This adjustment stacks with those from similar effects, such as the Spell Focus feat.

Thats not the same as +1 to CL.
most cleric domains give +1 to CL of a FEW select spells; the domains and the ioun stone are the only 2 ways to increase CL in core AFAIK... elves get +1 to CL in all spells. It is meant to embody their "magical affinity" while not being broken.
It is more useful then the entire laundry list of abilities that I removed. I made elves more powerful, not less.

I agree. ALL elves should be fixed. Someone call the vet and get my my hedge clippers.

ha, that was hillarious

.....So what your saying is we should grind them up for spell components? At least for those races that want to do something meaningful with magic. other than sit up a tree

so was that...

[Harperfan7]

Pathfinder did ok. They are naturally better at magic than humans, but a human who specializes is just as good as they are (puts his +2 in Int and uses his bonus feat for spell penetration) and will actually have more skills, but he won't be near as good as they are at the more roguish things. Whereas a human rogue can just about match an elf one (ok, not really) but won't come close to their magic.

So, now you have elves that are dex/perception and Int/magic and are better than humans at both, but any one human can be as good as they are at one or the other.

[ex cathedra]

Boosting CL is absurdly easy, in my experience. I don't know why you think that it's difficult at all. Star Elves, Grey Elves, and Fire Elves are all usable races, so I'm not sure what your problem with them is. To be honest, Elves are one of the better races; sure, they aren't Strongheart Halflings or Humans, but they're better than most other races, in my opinion.

Also, elves make 'damn terrible wizards'?
What?
You can't be serious.

[Optimystik]

Dex and Int are godly for a wizard. Batman wants to go first (initiative) and many of his tools use RTAs. Immunity to sleep is a huge help at early levels, when you can get caught in your own bursts (or targeted by other spell casters.) Elves also get extremely useful weapon proficiencies - even in a low-magic campaign, you're bound to find a good longbow/longsword. This is particularly a bonus for an elven cleric, who can now can whip out martial weapons instead of a mace.

I still don't like the pointy-eared gits, but that's not the same as saying they're weak.

[taltamir]

having useful WEAPON proficiencies doesn't make them good wizards... maybe from an optimization standpoint it helps, but its not actually good AT magic.

[Optimystik]

having useful WEAPON proficiencies doesn't make them good wizards... maybe from an optimization standpoint it helps, but its not actually good AT magic.

Elves are a problem race, they are simply vastly inferior to humans in every way shape or form.

Funny, I considered "every way shape or form" to be more inclusive than just wizardry.

[ex cathedra]

Their weapon proficiencies are helpful for gish prestige class qualification. Grey/Fire elves are great. +Int, +Dex is good. -Con is bad, but 2 Con is easily overcome, and Necropolitans/Unseelie Fey don't mind at all. -Str/-Cha is laughable. Elven Generalists are good if you can't specialize for some reason, or great with something like a Hummingbird familiar. Otherwordly is great, Eternal Blade, while not a caster, is another good elven option, as are Revenant Blade and Olin Gisir.

Saying that elves are bad is just saying that you aren't trying hard enough.

[taltamir]

Funny, I considered "every way shape or form" to be more inclusive than just wizardry.

those are unrelated statements:
1. they are inferior to humans
2. they are designed as bad at wizardry.

[Sinfire Titan]

no they don't, and no it isn't.

An Ioun stone of +1 to CL is 30,000gp. thats the only method to do so in the SRD.

Prayer Beads, Candle of Invocation (because it has an effect other than breaking your game), Archmage High Arcana class feature. That's the start of it. Outside the SRD, it just gets easier.



BTW, I use Rilkans, not Elves. Better flavor, better stats, and actually useful racial traits (bonuses to Knowledge checks beats +2 to spot hidden doors).

[taltamir]

Prayer Beads, Candle of Invocation (because it has an effect other than breaking your game), Archmage High Arcana class feature. That's the start of it. Outside the SRD, it just gets easier.

point, but 2 of the 3 are for clerics. I did say AFAIK... 5 total methods is not "obscenely easy".

1 is a wizard PrC, some are cleric only items, one is a 30k item that gives +1 and is class independent.

[ex cathedra]

UMD is for everyone, silly. Also, Karma Beads are the only divine-only items there, so I don't think I understand your point. Regardless, Elves are actually pretty okay at wizardry. Why not spend this effort on races that are actually bad?

Also, Rilkans? But... they're all scaly. Ew.

I said that raising your CL is obscenely easy. I didn't specify core, but the tools exist there.

[taltamir]

UMD is for everyone, silly.

UMD gives you + to CL when casting spells?
or are you saying a wizard should use UMD to use prayer beads?

a lot of those solutions require you to be at least level 15... this gives +CL at level 1.

[ex cathedra]

UMD gives you Karma Beads.

[Optimystik]

those are unrelated statements:
1. they are inferior to humans
2. they are designed as bad at wizardry.

A) My post was addressing both.

B) They're not "bad at wizardry." They have bonuses that very clearly help wizards, particularly Gray/Sun Elves and Lesser Drow.

[taltamir]

UMD gives you Karma Beads.

the beads of karma and summons can be activated by any character capable of casting divine spells. The owner need not hold or wear the strand of prayer beads in any specific location, as long as he carries it somewhere on his person.

[ex cathedra]

A DC25 UMD check allows anyone to gain the benefits of a Bead of Karma.

+1 CL at level one isn't such a big deal. It's a nice boost at low levels, I guess, but I'd rather play a normal Grey/Fire/Sun elf. At mid levels, everyone has access to really easy methods of boosting CL, while normal elves still have their own unique advantages.