Overpowered penalities? (D&D 3.5)

[Forever Curious]

Recently I've fallen in love with the concept of debuffing characters. I've also noticed how unbelievably overpowered they can be.

The question is, do typeless penalties from the same source stack? For example, if I cast Sting Ray (Spell Compendium) on the same opponent, do they take -4 to AC, or only -2?

I was also wondering this for the Hexblade's Curse class feature and the Luckstealer (Races of the Wild) Curse of the Fatespurrned class feature.

[Tyndmyr]

Normally, things from the same source do not stack, regardless of type.

There are exceptions for things like hp damage, of course, but Im pretty sure AC isn't one of them.

The good ol' fashioned Curse from the DMG can't be overrated. 50% chance to do nothing? Wow.

[Forever Curious]

Normally, things from the same source do not stack, regardless of type.

There are exceptions for things like hp damage, of course, but Im pretty sure AC isn't one of them.

The good ol' fashioned Curse from the DMG can't be overrated. 50% chance to do nothing? Wow.

Thank you for the clarification, and yes. Bestow Curse can be a very crazy spell.

Would that include a group of Harbinger's (Dragon Magazine) using their Instill Fear class ability? Could a PC take penalties from each Harbinger?

[Ravens_cry]

Thank you for the clarification, and yes. Bestow Curse can be a very crazy spell.

Would that include a group of Harbinger's (Dragon Magazine) using their Instill Fear class ability? Could a PC take penalties from each Harbinger?

I don't know the details of that class to be sure, but from what I know, no more then they would they take bonuses from a group of friendly bards.

[Sinfire Titan]

Here's a nice debuffer build:

Pally of Tyranny 2/Hexblade 4/Blackguard 2/Ur-Priest 2/Binder X/That Binder+Divine Caster dual advancement PrC who's name eludes me.


All enemies within 10ft of you take:
-2 from Pally of Tyranny's Aura to some stats
-2 from Hexblade's Dark Companion class feature to AC and attacks
-2 from a Vestige (forget the name)
-2 from Blackguard's Aura (not sure if this stacks with the Pally of Tyranny)
-Whatever the hell you want from your Divine spellcasting abilities

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Unless otherwise specified, the same effect does not stack with itself:

Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves.

[Ernir]

Regarding the original question... yeah, they don't usually stack.

Solution: Snag a bunch of different ones.

Here's a nice debuffer build:

Pally of Tyranny 2/Hexblade 4/Blackguard 2/Ur-Priest 2/Binder X/That Binder+Divine Caster dual advancement PrC who's name eludes me.


All enemies within 10ft of you take:
-2 from Pally of Tyranny's Aura to some stats
-2 from Hexblade's Dark Companion class feature to AC and attacks
-2 from a Vestige (forget the name)
-2 from Blackguard's Aura (not sure if this stacks with the Pally of Tyranny)
-Whatever the hell you want from your Divine spellcasting abilities

Unfortunately, the Blackguard's and the Paladin of Tyranny's auras are both "Aura of Despair". The same thing, so they don't stack.
Also, neither class gets it until level 3.

The vestige is Focalor (that one has an ability like that, anyway ), but the divine/binding advancing class is Tenebrous Apostate. You need a whole bunch of binder levels to bind Tenebrous, and even more if you want to bind both of them at once.

I like the build, though. I want to play one like it sometime.
The people I play with use Gestalt a lot, so what I had in mind was
Dread Necromancer 20//Spellthief 1/Paladin of T 3/Hexblade 4/Bard 1/Binder 1/Sublime Chord 2/FullcastingPrC 8

And take Doomspeak, from CoR (will save vs. -10 on a bunch of things. Whoo!).

Ur-Priest instead of Subchord might do it better, though. And be more versatile, if more MAD. Humm.

[Asheram]

Needs more curses. :)

[Runestar]

Penalties from different sources stack though. So if you hit a foe with waves of exhaustion followed by empowered ray of enfeeblement, he will take 6+(1d6+5)*1.5 penalty to str. Without save.

[Forever Curious]

I don't know the details of that class to be sure, but from what I know, no more then they would they take bonuses from a group of friendly bards.

Well, the bards give a typed "moral" bonus, while the harbingers give an untyped penalty.

But regardless.

[mabriss lethe]

Curse is really nasty because you have 3 separate effects listed (and a near infinite amount of leeway in creating your own curse with the spell.) It makes warlocks fun....

[sofawall]

Penalties from different sources stack though. So if you hit a foe with waves of exhaustion followed by empowered ray of enfeeblement, he will take 6+(1d6+5)*1.5 penalty to str. Without save.

11+(1d6)*1.5, the 5 isn't a variable numeric effect.

[Sinfire Titan]

Unfortunately, the Blackguard's and the Paladin of Tyranny's auras are both "Aura of Despair". The same thing, so they don't stack.
Also, neither class gets it until level 3.

The vestige is Focalor (that one has an ability like that, anyway ), but the divine/binding advancing class is Tenebrous Apostate. You need a whole bunch of binder levels to bind Tenebrous, and even more if you want to bind both of them at once.

In that case, ditch Blackguard and save a few feats, invest the levels in Pally and dip Crusader for Iron Guard's Glare and such, and then invest the other levels in Ur-Priest. IIRC, Focalor is one of the options for Improved Binding, but I don't think his Aura is the ability it grants.

[Runestar]

11+(1d6)*1.5, the 5 isn't a variable numeric effect.

It is, the magic missile example in the empower spell description proves this beyond reasonable doubt. It is really no different from rolling a 6-sided die, just that the sides have been repainted with numbers 6 to 11.

1d6+5 is basically the game's way of saying "A random number between 6 and 11. That is as variable as you get.

This is why empower is better than maximize on spells using the formula XDY+Z, especially those with a high Z component.

[D-naras]

... IIRC, Focalor is one of the options for Improved Binding, but I don't think his Aura is the ability it grants.

It actually is, so you dont even need binder levels, just to feats for it.
I would also like to add the Unseelie Fey template in Dragon Compedium. One of its abilities is -Cha mod to all saves on adjacent creatures. Pretty good for a build like that.

[Malacode]

Look in Champions of Ruin. Examine the bard feats. Drop your jaw. Re-read the feat that just blew your mind. Pick your jaw up off the floor. Double check it. Yes, it definitely says -10.

[Draz74]

Look in Champions of Ruin. Examine the bard feats. Drop your jaw. Re-read the feat that just blew your mind. Pick your jaw up off the floor. Double check it. Yes, it definitely says -10.

Which are the "bard feats"?

[The White Knight]

Which are the "bard feats"?

Ones that require bardic music to activate, I'm guessing. Like this one.

[ShippoWildheart]

I'd say Ray of Enfeeblement. At higher levels Empower it for maximum profit. At level 10 and higher that's a penalty of 9-16 points of STR damage. That's really nasty to anything not Epic level.

[sonofzeal]

I'd say Ray of Enfeeblement. At higher levels Empower it for maximum profit. At level 10 and higher that's a penalty of 9-16 points of STR damage. That's really nasty to anything not Epic level.

I prefer Ray of Clumsiness (everything suffers when its dex goes down, but only some things care about str and it's usually just -3 attack / -3 damage), or Ray of Stupidity (since it's damage and hence stacks)

[Zaq]

Here's a nice debuffer build:

Pally of Tyranny 2/Hexblade 4/Blackguard 2/Ur-Priest 2/Binder X/That Binder+Divine Caster dual advancement PrC who's name eludes me.


All enemies within 10ft of you take:
-2 from Pally of Tyranny's Aura to some stats
-2 from Hexblade's Dark Companion class feature to AC and attacks
-2 from a Vestige (forget the name)
-2 from Blackguard's Aura (not sure if this stacks with the Pally of Tyranny)
-Whatever the hell you want from your Divine spellcasting abilities

Needs moar Binder. Both Focalor and Chupoclops have a no-save debuff area.

For a couple nice no-save debuff spells, check out (Mass) Curse of Impending Blades, from the Spell Compendium (originally Miniature's Handbook). It's a bard 2 / ranger 2 / sorcerer 2 spell (level 3 for each for the mass version) that applies a penalty to AC with no save. It has a sister spell in the form of Curse of Petty Failing that applies a penalty to saves and attack rolls, but unfortunately, it was updated to "Curse of Ill Fortune" in the SpC and given a saving throw.

There are some fun feats for debuffing, too, though very few affect an area. Dreadful Wrath (a regional Faerun feat, unfortunately) essentially gives you Frightful Presence that isn't limited by HD. Netherese Battle Curse (from Lost Empires of Faerun, and I think it's in the web preview) is like Arcane Strike, only instead of adding d4s of damage, it inflicts penalties to attacks/damage/saves/skills/ability checks. It doesn't stack, but it's sexy. Sand Dancer, from It's Hot Outside, keys off of wisdom rather than charisma, but has a chance to blind your enemies if you put ranks into Tumble (if you're not in the desert, you have a certain % chance for it to apply in any given locale... or you can use the mildly cheesy but very effective decanter of endless sand to force the issue, if you're not being tracked), which is fun. Brutal Strike, from PHB2, can sicken your enemy as part of your attack action.

Less useful is the feat Stench of the Dead, which does apply a debuff (well, if they fail a save) without an action, but affects allies too and carries some SEVERE roleplay problems if you're doing anything other than smashing in doors.

Another way you can attach a debuff to your weapon is the Sudden Stunning enhancement from DMG2 (It doesn't have a +X cost, but instead a straight GP cost, so it's really cheap... and the DC actually scales. I believe they meant to nerf it with Stunning Surge in the MIC, but since the names don't technically match, it stays valid). There's also the arms-bound ability of the Incarnate Weapon, but that requires more than a couple levels of investment (or, I suppose, two relatively high-level feats, but without any essentia to put in it, the save's kinda mediocre). The Weapon Bond ability of the Ironsoul Forgemaster is the same, only more so (it's just not something you can get casually).

Personally, I love the idea of swinging at someone and just making them make far, far too many saving throws. They'll fail some of them eventually. It's kinda like making them take 20 on a saving throw, only they're already at a penalty from your debuff auras.