Improving a Spider

[Serpentine]

I need some help improving a sword spider in an interesting way. Just adding HD is an option, but kinda boring, according to its origin impossible (no advancement option), and possibly not quite appropriate for the amount I'm wanting to advance it.
The context is thusly:

• Sword Spider (Monsters of Faerun & update)
• Normal CR 5
• Target CR more than 11 (6 x 12th level characters, want it to be a moderately challenging encounter)
• Has an intelligent score. Very low at this point, but could easily be raised.
• Set in the temple of a trickster deity (Chaotic? Not as it appears?)
• Obsessively possesses an orb that slowly transforms its owner into a spider (used to be human/oid? Character levels?)
• Encounter will be as follows: The spider drops its orb from the ceiling, and descends to retrieve it. It will only attack the party if they get too close to the orb, try to take it, or attack first. They can avoid a fight if they take the orb back to the nest in the ceiling. It won't immediately be seen, but it won't try terribly hard to not be seen once it drops its orb.
• If it ends up being really cool, it could maybe turn up later. Say, even if they kill it, and especially if they take the orb, the god may ressurrect it and let it chase them...

Ordinary sword spider (+some Int):
Large Vermin
Hit Dice: 5d8+10
Initiative: +0 (10)
Speed: 20ft, climb 20ft
Armour Class: 17 (+8 natural, -1 size), touch 17, flat-footed 17
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+11
Attack: leg +6 melee (1d6+5) or bite +6 melee (1d8+2+poison)
Full Attack: 8 legs (no more than 4 on single enemy) +6 melee (1d6+4) and bite +1 melee (1d8+2+poison)
Face/Reach: 10ft/5ft
Special Attacks: Impalement(Ex) - Attacks at +5 melee, takes damage from 3 if Small, 4 if Medium
or 5 if Large leg blades. If descends more than 20ft to make the attack, adds +1 damage from each
leg.
Poison (Ex) - Fort DC 16, 1d6/1d6 Str damage.
Special Qualities:
Saving Throws: Fort +6, Ref +1, Will +1
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 3, Wis 11, Cha 3
Skills: Climb +12, Hide +0, Jump +4, Spot +12
Feats:
Challenge Rating: 5
Alignment: N

The Orb (no cool name yet):
A perfect crystal sphere, like a crystal ball but threaded with strands of some black mineral, rolls to a stop in the centre of the room.
Orb grants the ability to cast web and spider climb, personal only, thrice a day each. Once it has been in a person’s possession for 24 hours, that person takes a remarkable liking for it (Will DC 15 to be separated from it temporarily, DC 20 to give it up permanently). They also begin to slowly (over weeks or months) transform into a monstrous spider of the same size category. Using the abilities of the orb hastens the process. The process halts as long as the item is no longer in their possession, but can only be removed completely through magical means. If the owner is separated from it for less than 24 hours, the process continues immediately. Otherwise, it takes
another 24 as normal.

I'll almost certainly end up adding some extra HD, but I'd like something more interesting than that. I also don't want it to get any or much bigger than it is (at the larger end of Large, perhaps, but if it edges into Huge it'll be on the smaller side of that).
Any thoughts?

[BobVosh]

What is it stats like? And do you want to be a melee beast, stealthy, or casty? I'm doubting the last one, but hey.

[Grumman]

[*]Obsessively possesses an orb that slowly transforms its owner into a spider (used to be human/oid? Character levels?)

Not quite what you were asking for, but you should make this a Fang Scarab from Song and Silence. It doesn't take effect automatically, but the fluff is what you were looking for.

[Temotei]

Templates are awesome. The dark template is one option for a stealthy spider.

Fiendish sword spider?

There are all kinds of templates you could use.

[Sliver]

How about templates? The first thing I though of was Anarchic ‘Unfinished’ Creature.. Give it the Werespider template!

[Temotei]

How about templates? The first thing I though of was Anarchic ‘Unfinished’ Creature.. Give it the Werespider template!

Half-spider werespider sword spider?

[Sliver]

Half-spider werespider sword spider?

With spiderclimb..

[taltamir]

and a half dragon too :)

[paddyfool]

Personally, I'm a big fan of the "Of Legend" template, if you're planning on this being a really important spider. For one thing, this can give it levels of casting as if it were a cleric, which fits with the whole "cursed to guard a temple" deal.

[PhoenixRivers]

and a half dragon too :)

Because Dragons will breed with anything.

[Serpentine]

Not quite what you were asking for, but you should make this a Fang Scarab from Song and Silence. It doesn't take effect automatically, but the fluff is what you were looking for.

Ooo. Where would I find that?

What is it stats like? And do you want to be a melee beast, stealthy, or casty? I'm doubting the last one, but hey.

Edited the first post to cover this, hopefully.

Personally, I'm a big fan of the "Of Legend" template, if you're planning on this being a really important spider. For one thing, this can give it levels of casting as if it were a cleric, which fits with the whole "cursed to guard a temple" deal.

Now I think about it, that could work quite well. And it's not necessarily "cursed". I mean, the god's not (necessarily) Evil...

I did go over the templates (as listed in CrystalKeep), but couldn't find any that really worked.

[Grumman]

Ooo. Where would I find that?

The 3.0 book, Song and Silence.

[Runestar]

The stats for a fang of lolth can be found here.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20011207

I assume its int score came from the fiendish template or something. Is there an awaken vermin spell anywhere? I don't understand how a mindless vermin can get a LA, but that is not relevant here.

MM4 has the lolth-touched template - the +6str/con is a steal at +1cr really.

With 8 legs, you may want some sort of pounce, so 1 lv in barb (lion totem; complete champion) is never a bad idea, plus you get rage.

When it comes to adding class lvs to a monster, you can't go wrong with tome of battle's martial adept classes. For maneuvers, I will focus more on boosts and counters for defense and to complement your many natural attacks, such as burning blade or assassin's stance.

So the basic stub will likely be:
Fiendish lolth-touched sword spider barb1/swordsage4,
for a final cr of 13. If you don't have the fiendish template, we can bring in 2 more class lvs.

[Reinboom]

This is my envisioning of what you have described.

Basing stats between colossal monstrous spiders, the sword spider, and the roper. And the beguiler.

(using my generator as a baseline to work in)

Sworb Spider, Beguiler

Size/Type: Large Vermin (Intelligent)
Hit Dice: 12d8+48 + (Beguiler 1) 1d6+4 (109 hp)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 20 ft. climb 20 ft.

Armor Class: 24, touch 12, flat-footed 21 (-1 size, +3 dex, +12 natural)
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+19
Attack: 8 legs +15 melee (1d6+6), bite +9 melee (1d8+6, poison)
Full Attack: +14/+9
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Impalement, Poison
Special Qualities: Darkvision (60'), Reminiscing (17 Int)
Class Abilities: Armored mage (see beguiler), trapfinding (see beguiler), Spellcasting (see beguiler, and see text).

Saves: Fort +12, Ref +7, Will +8
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 17, Con 18, Int 3, Wis 11, Cha 3
Skills: Climb (+6), Hide (+7), Jump (+12), Spellcraft (+11 (ranks)), Spot (+12), Use Magic Device (+11 (ranks))
Feats: Spell Focus (Enchantment), Combat Reflex (4 AoO total), Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Weapon Focus (legs)
Challange Rating: 11
Treasure: Spider's Eye
Alignment: Usually Neutral

Combat
Impalement (Ex): When targeting a single powerful opponent, sworb spiders will try to leap into the air and bring their bladed legs down upon their foe. They make a single attack roll when doing so (+15), but on a hit, the target takes damage based on their size category. 3 legs of damage (3d6+18) to a small or smaller creature, 4 (4d6+24) if medium, 5 (5d6+30) if large, 6 (6d6+36) if huge, and all 8 (8d6+48) if gargantuan or larger.

Poison (Ex): Those hit by a sworb spider's bite attack must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 18) or be injected with poison. Both the initial and secondary damage is 1d6 points of temporary Strength damage.

Reminiscing (Ex): The sworb spider retains some details about what it used to be. To this effect, upon becoming a sworb spider, it may choose a single ability score to retain at its previously highest point for the purposes of using class features, such as spellcasting. A beguiler sworb spider would retain Intelligence in this manner. Assume this ability was their Elite array's highest score and increase it based on their previous levels. As a sworb spider, if this ability score would be damaged, decreased, or similar it does not effect the score protected by Reminiscing.

Spellcasting: The beguiler sworb spider casts as a 1st level beguiler, a hint of their previous life. Due to Reminiscing, they cast as though they had an Intelligence score of 17 (+3 modifier).
Level 0 spells (DC 13): dancing light, daze, detect magic, ghost sound, message, open/close, read magic
Level 1 spells (DC 14, DC 15 for enchantments): charm person, color spray, comprehend languages, detect secret doors, disguise self, expeditious retreat, hypnotism, mage armor, obscuring mist, silent image, sleep, undetectable alignment, and 2 spells from the Player's Handbook 2 (see beguiler entry).

Spider's Eye (Item): The spiders eye is a powerful orb controlled by a sworb spider, as well as the orb that turned them into such. A faint, greenish glimmering, arachnid design can be seen within. A sworb spider holds this orb upon their person, usually luring it downwards to attract unwary travelers. However, normally, they are quick to retrieve it after the incident, for, extended time away from the orb (about 1 hour) causes them to lose more of what they were, the orb being their final connection to the world.
If a sworb spider loses contact with such an orb for an hour or longer, they lose their final class levels for this duration. After a day (24 hour period), this loss becomes permanent. Retrieving the orb before this loss occurs, and holding the orb on themselves for a period of 1 hour restores any temporarily lost class levels.

For the unwary traveler, such an item can have dire consequences. <Insert your fluff here!>


Intelligent Subtype
The intelligent subtype represents a creature who has developed a mind despite having the form of a creature who otherwise would not have one. They gain skill points and feats as an intelligent creature would but lose their immunity to mind-affecting abilities. Normally, this trait is not readily noticeable.

[Shpadoinkle]

If you really want a challenge, go with multiple enemies. Six characters working together will shut down a single target in no time, unless the target is immune to 90% of the stuff the casters do (i.e. anything not involving HP damage). All it takes is a single failed save on the enemy's part for the encounter to be over.

[Runestar]

Great play on the words sword and orb. I almost mistook that for an amusing typo...

[Cespenar]

Give it Warblade levels.

Agree with ^^, by the way. Either think of putting an additional target or two, or complicate the encounter so that they couldn't attack the poor creature with direct 6 to 1 odds.

[ondonaflash]

As a life-time arachnophobe I am opposed to this thread in every possible way. We should not be seeking ways to strengthen the arachnoid menace! We should be seeking ways to ERADICATE IT!

[Runestar]

Give it Warblade levels.

Agree with ^^, by the way. Either think of putting an additional target or two, or complicate the encounter so that they couldn't attack the poor creature with direct 6 to 1 odds.

Well, we could always use 2-3 of them, to maximize the effort spent in statting it out.

[Reinboom]

Well, we could always use 2-3 of them, to maximize the effort spent in statting it out.

That seems separate from the goal. It looks like she wanted a strong solo.

Of course, there is still the issue of 6 on 1. Without making it mucky with class levels (and those, overcomplicates that encounter), it would probably be easier to put traps and hazards around it. Webs it can cut to drop stuff on the poor party members, for example. Things that represent a mind that is still stuck somewhere in there.

[Serpentine]

Added some extra details in the original post.

I like the look of that, Reina. Thanks. I especially like the Intelligent subtype, wouldn't've thought of those details. I'm not sure about it being a spellcaster, though... Spell-like and special abilities would be grand, but spellcaster... I dunno, I'll have a look at the Beguiler, see what exactly it does.

[Reinboom]

Added some extra details in the original post.

I like the look of that, Reina. Thanks. I especially like the Intelligent subtype, wouldn't've thought of those details. I'm not sure about it being a spellcaster, though... Spell-like and special abilities would be grand, but spellcaster... I dunno, I'll have a look at the Beguiler, see what exactly it does.

I was thinking 'trickster' with the beguiler level. It also cleanly solved the speed issue for if/when it chases the party. Without something to speed it up, I would recommend changing its speeds to 30/20 or 40/30.

I tried to format it in such a way as to make the beguiler level easily replaceable, I thought you would give me a "dunno" response . Remove the +2 Will bonus, the skill ranks, and the bit of extra HP (7) from the beguiler level, and replace with whatever.
And of course, the spellcasting too.

[Runestar]

Well, I am not sure how 1 lv of beguiler can contribute meaningfully to the encounter at this juncture. It is cool from a flavour perspective, but sadly, the players will likely never get to appreciate this.

Good point on the 6v1 orgy though. You will definitely want to use difficult terrain and traps and try to divide the party so that no more than 2-3 players can attack you at any one time (if possible). Any suggestions for that?

[paddyfool]

I've just checked the Monster of Legend template, and it's only meant for "Animals, Beasts and Monstrous Humanoids", not vermin, unfortunately. But if you want it badly enough, well, you are the DM, and a Sword Spider of Legend would be awesome, with awesome boosts to stats, awesome special abilities (either the "Cast as Cleric Level 5" or "Frightful Presence" would seem very appropriate, plus any two out of "Greater Damage", "Reflective Hide", "Haste, always on", "Fast healing 5" and "Immunities"), good bonus feats, and a handy boost to natural armour & saves. For +2 CR, it's probably more than a little undervalued (And then if you go for the "Cast as Cleric" option, the obvious way to take up its CR further would be more Cleric...). You'd also want a scattering of minions to keep things really interesting for the players - maybe spider swarms, ordinary sword spiders, and/or humanoid worshippers.

[Serpentine]

I tried to format it in such a way as to make the beguiler level easily replaceable, I thought you would give me a "dunno" response

Am I that predictable?
Heh, thanks.

I'll think about throwing in some spider swarms, and maybe give it some sort of summoning ability... Hey, Sword Spider Druid?

[Arcane_Secrets]

A couple of weird ideas:

What if the spider had two types of sharpened hairs on its body that were analogous to spikes or spines? The first kind it could shoot at opponents, so it could snipe at your party members from a distance and try and pick them off from across the room. The second kind would be much smaller, but they would be inhalable so anyone who walked into the cloud took a certain amount of significant damage in the region by having spines going into their lungs. This again would also allow the spider to separate out party members from each other by creating regions that the party members wouldn't want to go through.

A third idea is that the webs themselves could do continuous damage to those entrapped, so not only would a single party member be down while they tried to free themselves, but a second might be too busy trying to help the first to help gang up on the spider.

[Thrawn183]

I think it needs some kind of aura that incapacitates people nearby. This works better the more PC's it has to face, because the same ability forces more saves.

Maybe make it some kind of fear effect.

[Zaq]

A few class levels are the way to go, I think. Just remember to refluff as needed, and you can easily toss on a few good levels to add in tricks. Swordsage, PsyWar, maybe Totemist, or Spellthief could be interesting.

And yeah, definitely give it something else in terms of an environmental advantage. Traps, mooks, illusions, whatever, just something to keep the players on their toes and ideally not have them dogpile it.

[Eldariel]

I think you should either make it a hard-to-detect skirmisher (not so tough with a Beguiler; maybe make it a Beguiler 4?) or give it some quickened actions or such. 'cause yeah, 6-1 is tough without some way to...balance out the actions. Though Spider Swarms do seem interesting; as it's intelligent, maybe bestow it with "able to command creatures of its kind"-ability.

[Serpentine]

I'm thinking a couple of levels of Cleric. Bit of spellcasting, bit of "oomph", worshipper of the temple's deity...

A question on the sword spider itself: Its extra-special ability is to jump on an enemy and stab it with several legs at once. Against a Medium creature (which most of this party is), it can use 4 legs at once (3 on a Small). It gets a small bonus to its damage if it jumps from above. Normally, it can attack an enemy with no more than 4 legs.
Aside from the small damage bonus, and attacking Large or larger creatures, what's the advantage of this Impalement ability?