Is the Summon Monster line worth casting?

[Tyndmyr]

Well, look at it at low levels. Full round casting time is a big negative, and the duration is frankly, terrible. round/level makes this an abysmal trade for the first coupla levels, and the monsters are generally fairly weak.

Now, you can partially fix this with extend/persist, but for most builds, this is going to mean casting a Summon Monster quite a bit below your spell level. Yay, now at level 15, you can persist a Summon Monster 1. This is damn near completely useless. Heck, most of the SM 1 options are lucky to get in a single point of damage, and are too small to be useful as battlefield control.

Sure, you *could* work on optimizing it, but it's usually better to start with something worthwhile in the first place.

Alternatively, you could pull it a summon monster 7 at that level...but again, full round casting, so it doesn't even become useful until turn 2, and you run the risk of being interrupted by anyone bright enough to stab a caster. Once it does come in, yay, you have a CR 5-9 mob in a level 15 fight. You could have, instead, fried or immobilized 1+ of the enemy mobs, which would have swung the balance of power much more.

So, I ask you...when is the summon monster line useful, and how do you make it so?

[Grumman]

You can't persist Summon Monster anyway, since it has a variable range.

[HCL]

Summon monster 3 is generally considered the best level summon monster spell for its level combat wise. Some monsters have SLAs which makes the spell pretty versatile. There are plenty of things you can do to beef up your summon monster spells like Augment summoning, thaumaturgist, malconvoker, and the raptoran cleric subs.

[graeylin]

i like it.. being able to get a couple allies in a fight can mean a big difference.. they do some damage, freeing you to cast more spells. At low levels, a bag of tricks may be better, but at mid to high levels, being able to summon multiples and choosing the right creature (elemental, archons, etc.) can be tide turning.

[Tyndmyr]

You can't persist Summon Monster anyway, since it has a variable range.

Good call. Extend is as good as it gets.

[Saph]

It can be okay for clerics, but, as you've noted, at low levels the duration is too short to be worthwhile, and most of the summonables are very weak.

Wizards and sorcerers don't have much reason to use it, as the whole point of being an arcane caster is to use the spells which the cleric DOESN'T get. And druids have the far superior Summon Nature's Ally.

Finally, note that the Summon spells all take one full round to cast, which, to any minimally intelligent enemy, is the equivalent of holding up a sign saying "Hey everyone, I'm casting a slow and powerful spell! You should hit me and disrupt it!"

[ex cathedra]

It's not as good as Summon Nature's Ally, especially with certain items and feats, but it's possible through several means to reduce the casting time to a normal standard action. In low levels, the duration is far too short, and in high levels, the effect is far too negligible, but there's a sweet spot around SMIII and SMIV in which it can be quite usable.

[Starbuck_II]

Well, look at it at low levels. Full round casting time is a big negative, and the duration is frankly, terrible. round/level makes this an abysmal trade for the first coupla levels, and the monsters are generally fairly weak.

Now, you can partially fix this with extend/persist, but for most builds, this is going to mean casting a Summon Monster quite a bit below your spell level. Yay, now at level 15, you can persist a Summon Monster 1. This is damn near completely useless. Heck, most of the SM 1 options are lucky to get in a single point of damage, and are too small to be useful as battlefield control.

Sure, you *could* work on optimizing it, but it's usually better to start with something worthwhile in the first place.

Um, Arcane casters cast SM spells as standard action. At least Conjurers will.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/cl...njurerVariants


SM 1 is used for Spiders (web).

[Leolo]

It is ok, if you can use the specialist variants from UA and/or some good options from the complete series.

A focussed Conjurer with rapid augmented summoning and levels in malconvoker or master specialist may be as awesome as every other good wizard build.

But without setting the character focus strongly on summonings there are better spells to take.

[AmberVael]

Finally, note that the Summon spells all take one full round to cast, which, to any minimally intelligent enemy, is the equivalent of holding up a sign saying "Hey everyone, I'm casting a slow and powerful spell! You should hit me and disrupt it!"

And unfortunately, it isn't a slow and powerful spell, it's just a slow spell.

I'd personally up the duration of Summon Monster, and drop the casting time to a standard action.

[Tyndmyr]

Yeah, standard action and minute/level would make it much more worthwhile. At least then, it'd always last through an entire combat...possibly two if they're quite close together or it's extended.

[grautry]

If you focus on it, it's a viable build for arcane casters(Malconvoker <3).

Generally speaking they're worthwhile spells that can do quite a lot of good, so it's nice to know at least some summon spells. They're plenty versatile(SLAs/spells), they can act as tanks, as BFC(quite a lot of summons have very high grapple checks for example) or as literal trap monkeys.

They're not meant to last for long since most battles won't last longer than a couple of rounds anyway.

But druids are better at summoning anyway.

[Nich_Critic]

Conjurers can take an ACF that reduces summoning to a standard action, making it much more useful. The Malconvoker PrC is very good for summoning: Free extend if you're summoning an evil creature and can make a trivial bluff check, which stacks with extend proper so you can easily have your monsters last the duration of the battle, plus if you're summoning a fiend from level 5 onwards, you actually summon two. When you look at the spells some of those demons/devils/fiends have, this can be pretty powerful.

If you aren't using either of those, rapid spell at least gets rid of the one round casting time. I'd say in general it's not worth it, although it's nice to throw down a summon monster 1, even if all it does is provide a flank for the rogue and aid another. I think that's a solid use of a 1st level spell. The cool thing is, no one will attack the monster, being that it's weak, so it can keep doing it's tiny buffs round after round. If they do attack it, they've wasted that attack which could have hit an ally. Beware of cleave though.

[DragoonWraith]

Out of the box, no.

But... Focused Conjurer 3 with Rapid Conjuring and Enhanced Conjuring, Master Specialist 4 (or possibly 10), Malconvoker 5, Paragnostic Apostle 1 (or possibly Sacred Exorcist 1, Paragnostic Apostle 5)... you can now cast Summon Monster as a Standard action, you get two extra per day per level, you've gotten Augment Summoning for free, your summons get bonus HP equal to your caster level (which is at least +1 if you have MS 6), your summons are extended for free, you get an extra summon every time you use Summon Monster, and your summons get Fast Healing. That's pretty sweet.

[oxybe]

a few things to note: bears & crocs are GREAT at keeping some enemies locked down with grapple checks. summon a handful of bears before combat and you've got yourself a few decent damage soakers and mobile terrain control.

elementals are also great as all of them make VERY good scouts (as long as you can speak their language), but the Earth & Air ones stand out, IMO. water dungeons aren't common enough to make the Water Elemental a staple, but the earth elemental can set of traps from a safe position and earthglide with only it's "head" sticking out of the ground and scout. the air elemental is highly mobile & can zip around for quick recon.

fire elementals are ok, but being made of fire they tend to show up in the darkness but are great at causing a disturbance. to quote the musical genius of StrongBad:
"Burninating the countryside,
Burninating the peasants,
Burninating all the peoples,
And their thatched-roof COTTAGES!"

a lot of them have nice SLA's you can take advantage of, you just need to research the critters you have summon access to.

absolute worst case scenario: you give the melee guy a flanking buddy or another damage soaker.

[Aldizog]

The SLAs that some of them have mean it's a way for a sorc to add some versatility. Minor, but it's something.

Their offensive power is greatly increased by having a bard in the party; a +3 bonus to hit means a lot more if it's shifting odds of hitting from 10% to 25% rather than 75% to 90%.

[Longcat]

You can't persist Summon Monster anyway, since it has a variable range.

Combine it with Ocular spell, and you can.

pew pew *shoots Fiendish Dire Wolves out of eyes*

[Bayar]

Combine it with Ocular spell, and you can.

pew pew *shoots Fiendish Dire Wolves out of eyes*

Oh god why am I laughing so hard ?

[Vizzerdrix]

Wizards and sorcerers don't have much reason to use it, as the whole point of being an arcane caster is to use the spells which the cleric DOESN'T get. And druids have the far superior Summon Nature's Ally.

I agree that a sorc won't, but I've found summons to be a good way to get a buff (Flanking for the sneaky sneaks), damage (over several rounds) and battlefield control (AoOs, blocking the enemy) all out of one spell and leaves more spell slots open for other things.

[Jergmo]

Combine it with Ocular spell, and you can.

pew pew *shoots Fiendish Dire Wolves out of eyes*

I am rolling on the floor laughing while still managing to type!

[Deth Muncher]

Combine it with Ocular spell, and you can.

pew pew *shoots Fiendish Dire Wolves out of eyes*

I woffled when I saw this.

What's woffling? Well, it's like rolling on the floor laughing, but decidedly more tasty and with the option of maple or blueberry syrup.

[Vizzerdrix]

I woffled when I saw this.

What's woffling? Well, it's like rolling on the floor laughing, but decidedly more tasty and with the option of maple or blueberry syrup.

Now you talking REAL maple syrup, or that corn syrup knock off crap most people use?

[Sinfire Titan]

SM9 isn't as good as Gate, but if the DM doesn't allow Gate for some reason you can always summon a Hezzrou with SM9 and get a Debuffer and free Chaos Hammer every round (for the Mooks).

[Oslecamo]

Yeah, standard action and minute/level would make it much more worthwhile. At least then, it'd always last through an entire combat...possibly two if they're quite close together or it's extended.

Because what casters need is even more cheap effecient minions.

Like many people pointed here, what SM lacks on raw power, it more than makes up with versatility. Sure, SNA has bigger beefier monsters, but SM offers a lot more versatility, and if nothing else they make great chump blockers. Bralani for example buffs your party with blur, heals up some wounds and then still casts some wind walls, just for a 6th level spell slot.

So no, making it a standard action minute/level would just make them auto-picks for every damn non-sorcerer caster out there.

Sinfire Titan:Notice that gate costs 1000 exp to bring an ally, whereas summon monster IX doesn't.

[Sinfire Titan]

Sinfire Titan:Notice that gate costs 1000 exp to bring an ally, whereas summon monster IX doesn't.

Gate gives you multiple allies who's CR is within your CL (max 25) or a single ally up to double your CL who is automatically under your control for 1 round/CL. The 1000 XP cost? You earn that back almost immediately. Sure, you don't cast it multiple times ina single fight, but you only need to cast it once and then dominate the summoned creature to get your money's worth.

[Deth Muncher]

Now you talking REAL maple syrup, or that corn syrup knock off crap most people use?

Psh, please. No high fructose cornsyrup for me thanks. I'm talking about straight out of the tree, Northern US Maple syrup. While it may not be quite as good as from the Great White North, it's damn close.

Plus, using imitation maple syrup for woffling...well, that's just blasphemy all around.

[Deth Muncher]

Because what casters need is even more cheap effecient minions.

Like many people pointed here, what SM lacks on raw power, it more than makes up with versatility. Sure, SNA has bigger beefier monsters, but SM offers a lot more versatility, and if nothing else they make great chump blockers. Bralani for example buffs your party with blur, heals up some wounds and then still casts some wind walls, just for a 6th level spell slot.

So no, making it a standard action minute/level would just make them auto-picks for every damn non-sorcerer caster out there.

Sinfire Titan:Notice that gate costs 1000 exp to bring an ally, whereas summon monster IX doesn't.

And thus, it was realized that Summon Monster specialists are actually players with White Weenie decks. :P

[Fortuna]

Hmm. I am currently playing a Spontaneous Cleric (Cloistered Cleric if you must know). Would it be worth it to take any of those spells at all?

[Sinfire Titan]

You mean Gate gives you that.

Whoops... Editing.

[Primehunter74]

I, playing a cleric usually, find this spell very useful. Sure it's casting time is a bit long, but being able to bring an ally into the fight for a short amount of time can turn a battle. At first level, it's duration sucks, I admit. Giving up a round of my time to summon this puny little thing for a round? No Way! But as you get higher level the duration improves.

It can also be useful for those less armored clerics or wizards. You see that hobgobllin fighter running toward you? No I dont, because my summoned creature is in the way, let me move to a better position at hit him with a fireball (or fire with your crossbow, be you a cleric.)

It has it's ups and downs, but I think that it can make a battle fun if used right.