[4E] Dropping parcels for WBL?

[jmbrown]

I hate the parcel system as it introduces a major disparity in character power. For example, the pure gold value of treasure from 1st to 2nd level is 720gp. Split evenly among 5 characters that's 144gp; that's almost 1/3 of a level 1 magic item. What happens in situations when players get items they don't want forcing them to sell or one character receives multiple magical items? The paltry sum of gold can't cover the expenses of 5 people who receive items that can't replace their current loadout but could definitely benefit someone else.

Even worse is how characters starting above level 1 are worth more on average. A level 2 character is worth 672gp which is almost as much as the entirety of level 1 treasure parcels! Assuming an even split at each level, a character starting at higher level will be worth more than a character starting at level 1.

How do you guys, if at all, handle this? Do you use alternate systems or make up your own value that you believe a character shoul be worth?

Right now, I'm thinking about a system where characters are worth two magic items per level (level + 1 and level + 0) and liquid cash equal to a magic item of their level. The reason is that, because the enhancement bonus of magic goes up every 5th level, the characters can reasonably replace old equipment every five levels. There are 10 "important" items (armor, weapons, implements, arms, feet, hands, head, neck, rings, and waist) with the gold being used to spend on consumables, wondrous items, and rituals.

Alternatively, the GM could also just give this value in straight up gold allowing the players to buy whatever they feel like. Examples of treasure loadout are in parentheses.

Level 1 Worth: 1240gp (3 level 1 magic items and 160gp)
Level 2 Worth: 1720gp (magic item level 5, magic item level 3, 40gp)
Level 3 Worth: 2200gp (magic item level 2, 2 magic items level 3, 320gp)
Level 4 Worth: 2680gp (2 magic items level 5, magic item level 1, 320gp)
Level 5 Worth: 3800gp (1 magic item level 5, 1 magic item level 7, 200gp)
etc.

Thoughts? Anyone else?

[Artanis]

Didn't we just go over this a couple weeks ago?


Anyways, it's expected that the DM is going to give the players items they're actually going to use, instead of random crap destined to be sold. If you give them something you know is going to be sold immediately, just include it as part of a cash parcel the way you would an art object with an equal sale value. Use the magic item parcels to give them something useful, and you'll wind up pretty close to the DMG's suggested starting "wealth" for characters beginning at level 2+.

And yes, there's nothing wrong with giving the purchase value of a magic item in the place of a magic item parcel. Swapping out a, say, level 5 item in exchange for enough gold to buy a level 5 item has the same end effect.

[Hal]

Aside from the fact that "treasure parcels" underestimate the wealth players should have at each level, my DMs have handled this like so:

My DMs have asked us for magic item wish lists. When we get magic items, we roll off for who gets the new one (depending on who hasn't gotten anything lately). The DM then checks our list and then informs us what we've found.

Alternatively, when we haven't had the list, my DMs have just told us to pick out a lvl X magic item by next session. Seems to solve the problem of unwanted items.

[Gralamin]

Aside from the fact that "treasure parcels" underestimate the wealth players should have at each level, my DMs have handled this like so:

My DMs have asked us for magic item wish lists. When we get magic items, we roll off for who gets the new one (depending on who hasn't gotten anything lately). The DM then checks our list and then informs us what we've found.

Alternatively, when we haven't had the list, my DMs have just told us to pick out a lvl X magic item by next session. Seems to solve the problem of unwanted items.

Parcels actually overestimate it, as long as you are efficiently distributing the wealth and giving the party useful items (As you are supposed to) then you will end up with quite a bit more wealth then level +1, level, level-1, level-1 gold.

[Beleriphon]

Parcels actually overestimate it, as long as you are efficiently distributing the wealth and giving the party useful items (As you are supposed to) then you will end up with quite a bit more wealth then level +1, level, level-1, level-1 gold.

I thought it was N+1, N-1, N and N-1 gold value.

[Artanis]

Every attempt I've ever seen at an "adding up the parcels" method of calculating WBL came out reasonably close to what the DMG suggests for characters starting at a given level. It may be more, it may be less, but it's always still close enough at enough levels that you might as well just use what the DMG says to use.

[jmbrown]

Didn't we just go over this a couple weeks ago?


Anyways, it's expected that the DM is going to give the players items they're actually going to use, instead of random crap destined to be sold. If you give them something you know is going to be sold immediately, just include it as part of a cash parcel the way you would an art object with an equal sale value. Use the magic item parcels to give them something useful, and you'll wind up pretty close to the DMG's suggested starting "wealth" for characters beginning at level 2+.

If we did I certainly didn't see it.

The problem is that, the massive gap in magic items means it's impossible to give people "what they want." I certainly wouldn't feel happy if each level saw me getting a piece of crap equal to my level + 1 while everyone else is getting items way beyond that. Even if you gave me all the gold in the parcel I would still be far behind. I'm going to try and do this "evenly."

Level 1
Character 1: Magic item 5
Character 2: Magic item 4, 40gp
Character 3: Magic item 3, 60gp
Character 4: Magic item 2, 120gp
Character 5: 540gp

Level 2
Character 1: 670gp
Character 2: Magic item 5, 60gp
Character 3: Magic item 4, 90gp
Character 4: Magic item 3, 170gp
Character 5: Magic item 6

Level 3
Character 1: Magic item 4, 225gp
Character 2: 1020gp
Character 3: Magic item 6, 75gp
Character 4: Magic item 7
Character 5: Magic item 5, 110gp

Level 4
Character 1: Magic item 5, 90gp
Character 2: Magic item 6, 140gp
Character 3: Magic item 8
Character 4: 1170
Character 5: Magic item 7, 280gp

Level 5
Character 1: Magic item 6, 340gp
Character 2: Magic item 7, 160gp
Character 3: 1390gp
Character 4: Magic item 9
Character 5: Magic item 8, 110gp

Treasure and (liquid cash value) of characters by level 6
Character 1: Magic item 5, 4, 5, 6, 1325gp (2253gp)
Character 2: Magic item 4, 5, 6, 7, 1420gp (2668gp)
Character 3: Magic item 3, 4, 6, 8, 1715gp (3059gp)
Character 4: Magic item 2, 3, 7, 9, 1460gp (3060gp)
Character 5: Magic item 6, 5, 7, 8, 1040gp (2800gp)

Although the gold piece value is close to even (average would be 2768gp for everyone which is higher than a character starting at 6), there's still a gap between magic item power. Character 1 has two +2 magic items, character 2 has three +2 magic items, character 3 has two +2 magic items, character 4 has two +2 magic items, and character 5 has four +2 magic items.

Again, this assumes an even loadout. A level 5 item could be a bag of holding which everyone can benefit from while a level 4 item could be a staff of winter +1. The wizard wants the staff and the bag of holding but no amount of gold in the treasure parcels will cover either item. Meanwhile, someone won't be getting any magic items at all.

What if a level 5 item is a battleforge armor +1. He really likes his black iron armor +1, though, so he sells the battleforge armor and is worth less than everyone else. What if this persists for two or more levels? He ends up with a disproportionate amount of magic items and treasure compared to everyone else.

No, I want a clear "This is what you should have at this level" instead of "This is what you might possibly get and I expect you to keep it or replace the old version." You can't predict player's actions and just because the DM thinks the item he's giving someone is good doesn't mean they'll accept it.

[Artanis]

So just don't keep giving the same player the lowest-level item. Give a player the lowest-level item parcel one level, and the same player the highest-level parcel the next, a middle-level parcel the level after that, and so on.

It's really rather simple to plan out if the DM puts a little thought into it.


If you want a clear "this is what you should have at Level N", there is one. Look in the DMG for "characters starting at higher levels". One item of level N-1, one item of level N, one item of level N+1, and gold equal to the purchase price of an item of level N-1. If you want a number in terms of gp, just add up the amount of gold that each of those four things is worth. Simple.

[Evard]

I tend not to pay attention to what WoTC says about giving players rewards... If my players are going out looking for magical items held by monsters or hidden somewhere then they will find something (usually evened out so that everyone gets something cool) or they will find the monster defeat the monster get extra quest XP and find some items that are useful enough to not sell but not exactly what they wanted (hey can't always give them the +5 holy avenger that they want :p lol)

[jmbrown]

So just don't keep giving the same player the lowest-level item. Give a player the lowest-level item parcel one level, and the same player the highest-level parcel the next, a middle-level parcel the level after that, and so on.

It's really rather simple to plan out if the DM puts a little thought into it.

It still doesn't work out evenly and feels artificial. Here's an example treasure loadout:

Level 1
Symbol of Battle +1 (level 5)
Longsword of Terror +1 (level 4)
Orb of Inevitable Continuance +1 (level 3)
Bracer's of Mighty Striking (level 2)


I have a party made up of a fighter, wizard, rogue, cleric, and paladin. I want each of them to get a magic item but one guy will be stuck with the gold. The fighter gets the longsword, the paladin gets the bracers, wizard gets the orb, and the cleric gets the symbol of battle. The rogue is left with whatever gold is left over. The wizard, however, uses rituals and everyone else would like liquid cash for things like equipment, room and board so the rogue's split is even less than it would be.

Pretty easy when dealing with weapons and implements. Now what happens when I introduce slot items?

Level 2

Horned Helm (level 6)
Gauntlet's of Ogre Power (level 5)
Black Iron Chainmail +1 (level 4)
Catstep Boots (level 3)

This is where the party fighting for treasure comes in. The helm, gauntlets, and boots could benefit the rogue who's a striker and relies on melee attacks. The wizard wouldn't mind the boots because he's tired of monsters bull rushing/sliding him off slopes. The fighter, cleric, and paladin want the black iron chainmail while the fighter and paladin could certainly use the gauntlets and helm.

Then they start fighting over who got what power treasure the last level and who should get what treasure now. They certainly have no money to buy treasure off each other because they gave all their cash to the rogue last level out of sympathy for not getting anything at all.

Yeah, I just really want a system where everyone is expected to get something each level. This would be different if magic items were restricted to each class but once you get away from weapons and implements you have the problem where people can reasonably use whatever you throw at them.

[Artanis]

How is this any different from previous editions where you give items as part of the treasure a party gets?


And if you want to just give them cash, then give them cash. Give them cash parcels equal to the cost of a L5 item, a L4 item, a L3 item, and a L2 item instead of giving them the actual items.

[BobTheDog]

Even though I think jmbrown is trying to prove his point no matter what, I have to agree that there is a, let's say, disconnect between levels 1 and 2.

As Artanis said, when you get down to mathmancy, the parcels end up close enough to the sum of the starting gear that you might as well just use them. Nevertheless, this only happens after a few levels.

At level 1, each PC gets 100 gp to spend, and on the course of the level, earns (if we ditch parcels and give out cash) 816 gp, for a total of 916 gp.

At level 2, each PC starts with (ditching mandatory items and just going with cash) 1920 gp and, according to the DMG guidelines, basic gear for free (nonmagical armor/weapons/symbols etc.), which will generally mean another 50 or so gp of freebies (secondary weapon, 15gp adventuring kit, nonmagical implements they wouldn't otherwise bother with etc.).

Over time, this gap gets smaller, but given the option it's always better to start a campaign at lvl 2 rather than lvl 1. Not only do you start out with another feat and a utility power, you get an item boost...

[jmbrown]

How is this any different from previous editions where you give items as part of the treasure a party gets?


And if you want to just give them cash, then give them cash. Give them cash parcels equal to the cost of a L5 item, a L4 item, a L3 item, and a L2 item instead of giving them the actual items.

Because the balance of the game is written around the 10 parcel per level recommendation. If you split up one of the items into its gold value then there'll still be a split in party capability because one or two characters will go without magical items while another character may be hording a level 9 or 10 item at level 6.

I don't want to say "Okay, everyone is expected to find N, N+1, and N-1" over the course of adventuring because that's 15 magical items split amongst 5 characters.

What I'm asking is how would you balance a system that eliminates the concept of a parcel but ensuring everyone is worth the same? That's what I want. Equal worth. I don't want one player ending up being worth 1/4 of another player (because it compounds rapidly as you go higher in levels) by paragon tier while the latter character is glittering with magical items.

[Noble Savant]

What I'm asking is how would you balance a system that eliminates the concept of a parcel but ensuring everyone is worth the same? That's what I want. Equal worth. I don't want one player ending up being worth 1/4 of another player (because it compounds rapidly as you go higher in levels) by paragon tier while the latter character is glittering with magical items.

I recommend letting the characters fight over the magic items and gold, (Read: Small Change purses and jewlery, with other luxuries as level rises), from the level appropriate encounters. It almost always leads to a balanced equilibrium. If it doesn't, that's where the DM comes in and pushes things in the way he wants them.

The parcel system isn't supposed to consider the player's personalities. At all. Assuming you split it perfectly, it'll more or less work out equally. On average at least. The DM is supposed to smooth all this over, this isn't a computer game.

[Artanis]

Even though I think jmbrown is trying to prove his point no matter what, I have to agree that there is a, let's say, disconnect between levels 1 and 2.

Yeah, levels 2 and 3 do differ quite a bit between the parcel total and the starting-at-that-level loadout. By the end of level 4, it's largely corrected.

Because the balance of the game is written around the 10 parcel per level recommendation. If you split up one of the items into its gold value then there'll still be a split in party capability because one or two characters will go without magical items while another character may be hording a level 9 or 10 item at level 6.

I don't want to say "Okay, everyone is expected to find N, N+1, and N-1" over the course of adventuring because that's 15 magical items split amongst 5 characters.

What I'm asking is how would you balance a system that eliminates the concept of a parcel but ensuring everyone is worth the same? That's what I want. Equal worth. I don't want one player ending up being worth 1/4 of another player (because it compounds rapidly as you go higher in levels) by paragon tier while the latter character is glittering with magical items.

If you don't want one player to be worth 1/4 as much as another player, then...you know...don't make one player worth 1/4 as much as another player. The DM has the ability to make sure that your doomsday scenario never happens. If he uses that ability, everything will be fine.

[Tequila Sunrise]

What happens in situations when players get items they don't want forcing them to sell or one character receives multiple magical items?

If this happens, the DM is doing something wrong. See page 125 of the DMG: a DM should tailor each magical item to one of his characters. And items should be staggered such that no character gets more than one per level, and that no character repeatedly gets level + 1 items.

Even worse is how characters starting above level 1 are worth more on average.

You're right. That guideline for starting above 1st level is very rough, and produces over-equipped PCs until 4th level.

How do you guys, if at all, handle this? Do you use alternate systems or make up your own value that you believe a character should be worth?

The parcel system works just fine for me, with a couple tweaks. First, I convert half of each level's monetary parcel into an item of level +0 -- because I think that not giving one PC an item each level is being a douche for no good reason.

Second, the 'level + X' guidelines are just that -- guidelines. I can't be bothered to comb through all those items to find just the right levels, so I just make sure that my players find items from their level to 5 higher than their level.

In any case, I seem to be discussing parcels a lot these days with DMs who just get rubbed the wrong way by the system. So I translated the parcel system into Wealth by Level.

[jmbrown]

I recommend letting the characters fight over the magic items and gold, (Read: Small Change purses and jewlery, with other luxuries as level rises), from the level appropriate encounters. It almost always leads to a balanced equilibrium. If it doesn't, that's where the DM comes in and pushes things in the way he wants them.

The parcel system isn't supposed to consider the player's personalities. At all. Assuming you split it perfectly, it'll more or less work out equally. On average at least. The DM is supposed to smooth all this over, this isn't a computer game.

The DM can't smooth things over while using the parcel system. That's the point I'm trying to make here. Each level assumes you get 4 magic items and 6 sacks of gold. If you combine the gold into another magic item then you're reducing the gold everyone else has a chance to get. The parcel system, by virtue of design, leaves someone behind the power curve each level.

If you don't want one player to be worth 1/4 as much as another player, then...you know...don't make one player worth 1/4 as much as another player. The DM has the ability to make sure that your doomsday scenario never happens. If he uses that ability, everything will be fine.

The DM doesn't have the ability to correct it within the standards set by the parcel system because magic items increase in price at a rapid exponential rate. The guy stuck with the level N + 1 magic item at level 1 but picks up the level N + 4 weapon at level 2 is worth more than the guy who got the level N + 4 weapon at level 1 but stuck with the level N + 1 weapon at level 2. It's impossible to evenly split treasure in 4E specifically because of the way it's priced. You, as DM, can't even stack it evenly because there'll always be at least 2 players (those who get jack squat each level compounded) will end up with at least 30% less than everyone else. See the example I gave above.

If this happens, the DM is doing something wrong. See page 125 of the DMG: a DM should tailor each magical item to one of his characters. And items should be staggered such that no character gets more than one per level, and that no character repeatedly gets level + 1 items.

Again, it's impossible to predict exactly what people want unless they explicitely tell you and I hate the idea of wish lists because it results in players finding exactly what they expected (while the one character gets absolutely nothing). It wouldn't be so bad if items could be sold for 1/2 price but the 1/5 price really, really devalues a person's worth.

In any case, I seem to be discussing parcels a lot these days with DMs who just get rubbed the wrong way by the system. So I translated the parcel system into Wealth by Level.

This looks pretty sound. It amazes me how much little cash you actually get in the game, though, and how much you have to rely on the DM giving you what you ask for. I'm trying to create a system where the players actually have some spending power instead of having to rely on the DM providing them with equipment they "wish" for or being forced to settle with items 5 levels lower because they didn't get what they wanted.

[nightwyrm]

Not to sound blasphamous, but the gold cost of the item doesn't really matter. If an item at level N has the properties I want, I'd rather have it than an N+1 lv item. And by the time you're replacing your items and melting down your old ones, the gold difference is fairly neglible.

As for the power curve, all the curve states is that you get a +1 every 5 levels. That's it. Whether you have a level 6 or a level 10 item is quite secondary.

As for tailoring items, even if I as the DM don't have a player wishlist, I still have a fairly good idea of who is going to get what I give out. If there's only one dude in the party who uses a staff and I put a staff in the treasure, I know who it's going to.

[jmbrown]

Not to sound blasphamous, but the gold cost of the item doesn't really matter. If an item at level N has the properties I want, I'd rather have it than an N+1 lv item. And by the time you're replacing your items and melting down your old ones, the gold difference is fairly neglible.

Exactly, but, does the DM know that? If I put a level N+1 item in the treasure thinking you'll take it, but you decide not to because you like your current item better, you will end up with a disproportionate amount of wealth for that level. This can repeat itself every level and the cost of a new magic item compared to the raw gold you get each level doesn't add up. God forbid I decide to convert the 200gp parcel or whatever into a 100gp parcel with 2 useless cure potions.

As for the power curve, all the curve states is that you get a +1 every 5 levels. That's it. Whether you have a level 6 or a level 10 item is quite secondary.

A level 6 item is a +2 and a level 10 item is a +3. I wouldn't call that secondary when a level 13 character could realistically end up with no magic items of level 10+ because each parcel is undesirable.

As for tailoring items, even if I as the DM don't have a player wishlist, I still have a fairly good idea of who is going to get what I give out. If there's only one dude in the party who uses a staff and I put a staff in the treasure, I know who it's going to.

Yes, implements are pretty specific and there's no trouble deciding who should get it if the party has one wizard. Now what happens when the party has 2 wizards? 3 wizards? What happens in the case of arms or feet slots where every character class can reasonably benefit from the item? I think it's ironic that, once again, spellcasters come out on top in 4E because nobody else can benefit from their specific implements making their treasure shares slightly more valuable.

[Artanis]

If all else fails, you could just put a higher-level version of the item they keep hanging on to in one of the parcels.



If there's stuff where multiple characters can benefit, let the players hash it out.

[nightwyrm]

I might be biased since my experience is from currently DMing a game for a swordmage, warden, druid and shaman. Each have their own needs and stuff that's good for them, so I've been pretty good at targeting items towards the PC.

The level brackets are 1-5, 6-10, 11-15, 16-20, 21-25, 26-30. Items at the higher end of the brackets may have a bit nicer property but really nothing that would break the power curve.

I really think you're overestimating how many PCs would want a specific item. Even if two PCs are in the same class, they would probably have their own specializations and/or weapon feats.

[toasty]

I really do think you're panicking a bit too much about balance. The parcel may not be perfect, but then fix it to suit your purpose. The first rule of being a good DM/GM is modifying rules/setting to suit your group. If the fighter seems to have gotten a crappy item, then give him a better item and screw the system. If your players complain tell them you're the DM.

The system may not be perfect, but it is, after all, simply guidelines to give the DM an idea of what kind of items the players need to fight monsters of their level. If stuff is too easy, skip a item drop, if stuff is too hard, give them an extra reward somehow.

[Tequila Sunrise]

Again, I suggest that you don't ever give a character nothing. Convert half of each level's monetary parcel into a magical item.

Again, it's impossible to predict exactly what people want unless they explicitely tell you and I hate the idea of wish lists because it results in players finding exactly what they expected (while the one character gets absolutely nothing). It wouldn't be so bad if items could be sold for 1/2 price but the 1/5 price really, really devalues a person's worth.

Excuse me for being blunt, but I think you're over-worrying yourself. What players want are the items they need to adventure: weapons/implements, armor and neck items with appropriate enhancement bonuses. Everything else is just gravy.

You imply that players should get exactly what they want, but you don't want to ask them. Seems like you're making problems for yourself, but if it really bothers you do this: give the PCs a bunch of loot you know they don't want (an orb when the party has no wizards) and then let them sell it for for half value. Or heck, let 'em sell it for full value, it's your game!

This looks pretty sound. It amazes me how much little cash you actually get in the game, though, and how much you have to rely on the DM giving you what you ask for. I'm trying to create a system where the players actually have some spending power instead of having to rely on the DM providing them with equipment they "wish" for or being forced to settle with items 5 levels lower because they didn't get what they wanted.

You could also simply give your PCs a big pile of gold and let 'em at the magic mart. If the PCs work for a powerful individual or organization, you can explain it as rewards for their successful missions.

Yes, implements are pretty specific and there's no trouble deciding who should get it if the party has one wizard. Now what happens when the party has 2 wizards? 3 wizards? What happens in the case of arms or feet slots where every character class can reasonably benefit from the item? I think it's ironic that, once again, spellcasters come out on top in 4E because nobody else can benefit from their specific implements making their treasure shares slightly more valuable.

If anything, casters have gotten the suck end of the stick in 4e to make up for their awesomeness in previous renditions. It doesn't matter much at all whether or not another PC can use your toy, because likely only you can use it well. If you can't use something well, you might as well not even use it.

If your party has two wizards, and they both happen to use orbs, you give the party two orbs every five levels so that they both get a shiny new toy. If you want to give them a pair of boots or whatever, just give it to them and let them work it out. Unless they're children, they'll be able to handle it. And if they are children, give them all a pair of the same boots.

Or whatever, it's your game, but I think you're taking your DMing responsibilities just slightly too seriously.