More Spells Known (D&D 3.5)

[The Dark Fiddler]

So I was thinking about Sorcerers and Bards and all those other Spontaneous Casters with limited spells known. I was wondering if there was some easily accessible (read: preferably without having to take 4 different feats or taking a dip in obscure PrC X) that also is not cheesy.

Also, would it be reasonable to houserule that such casters get bonus spells known based on their primary casting stat and/or that they get any spell specifically noted as a counter to one they take for free (for example, take Hold Portal and get Knock for free)?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

So I was thinking about Sorcerers and Bards and all those other Spontaneous Casters with limited spells known. I was wondering if there was some easily accessible (read: preferably without having to take 4 different feats or taking a dip in obscure PrC X) that also is not cheesy.

Depends. Is sandshaper obscure?

Also, would it be reasonable to houserule that such casters get bonus spells known based on their primary casting stat and/or that they get any spell specifically noted as a counter to one they take for free (for example, take Hold Portal and get Knock for free)?

Yes to both. I've never seen the second suggested before, but it's a good idea and I just might start using that myself.

[lsfreak]

At the beginning of each day, they can choose a number of spells equal to their casting stat modifier that they 'know' for the day. Only one of these spells can be of the highest-level spell the sorcerer can cast, and only two of the second-highest, but otherwise can be any spell from the sorcerer spell list. Each of these spells can be cast once per day, and use up a spell slot just as any other spell would.

Essentially, sorcerers get to prepare Cha-mod number of extra spells per day using their existing spell slots.

(The main problem I can see with this would be the caster/melee ability disparity, where casters get tons more per ability point than non-casters. But that problem exists already, soo...)

[The Dark Fiddler]

Depends. Is sandshaper obscure?

Dunno, I can't find it on Crystal Keep.

However, that sounds like the type of PrC that only fits certain concepts...

Yes to both. I've never seen the second suggested before, but it's a good idea and I just might start using that myself.

Glad to hear that.

(The main problem I can see with this would be the caster/melee ability disparity, where casters get tons more per ability point than non-casters. But that problem exists already, soo...)

Not a problem in my group, where spellcasters are usually so far behind melee classes that nobody ever plays them. (Although that may be because I'm the only person ever to play a full caster, and I've played three of them).

[dragonfan6490]

For my Sorcerers I give them 5 0-level spells and 3+Int Modifier 1st level spells known at 1st level, then 2+Int Modifier spells known at each level after that. The Core Sorcerer has 34 spells known by level 20, not including cantrips. This Sorcerer, assuming 10 Intelligence, by level 20, has 21 Spells Known. However, if they have 12 Intelligence, they will have 40 Spells Known. I'm well aware that this creates a bit of MAD, but it works for my games and gives Sorcerers a little more customization in their spell lists, since they're not limited to only knowing 5 level 1 spells.

[Vizzerdrix]

Oh Hai I got this list 4u ^_^

Mother cyst feat-LM
Cerebrosis-Drag mag 330 (one with a yellow background and a mind flayer on it ). feat that you can buy, just mind the teleport

Runestaves-MIC
Drake Helm-Eb Explorer's handbook or something.
Knowstones- Drag Mag 333 (I think)

Sandshaper
Mage of the Arcane Order
Rainbow Servant
Fiendblooded

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Dunno, I can't find it on Crystal Keep.

However, that sounds like the type of PrC that only fits certain concepts...

It's in Sandstorm. Taking 1 level doesn't advance a level of casting, but you gain about 45 spells known over all 9 spell levels, less than half of which are explicitly desert-themed (for instance, you get bear's endurance, bull's strength, and cat's grace as 1st level spells).

[Toliudar]

There are a bunch of bloodline feats, each of which add a spell per spell level for sorcerers.

Arcane Disciple is great to add flexibility to Warmages, Dread Necros and Beguilers, if you can manage a decent wisdom score.

Mage of the Arcane Order (which does require the combination of a couple feats and a Prestige Class) gives significant ability to pull out alternate spells as needed.

And yes, Runestaff goodness.

[Kelb_Panthera]

+1 for runestaves, unless you're looking for spells known, as in "naked in a pit I can still cast it."

[Aquillion]

Mage of the Arcane Order (which does require the combination of a couple feats and a Prestige Class) gives significant ability to pull out alternate spells as needed.

Mage of the Arcane Order requires one extra feat for a Sorcerer to enter (Arcane Preparation, since you have to prepare spells to enter it.) But this is not a "cheat" -- the PRC's description notes specifically that some Sorcerers enter it, and the feat is IIRC from the same book. In this case the synergy between the two is intentional.

Of course, Drake Helms, Knowstones, and Runestaves are much simpler, and just involve getting your hands on one of the items in question, with no other prerequisites.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Warmage/Beguiler + Rainbow Servant... spontaneously cast off the Cleric list. Yes, the entire Cleric list. Doesn't work for Sorcerer, though, because it only grants access to and puts them on the spell list. However, a Warmage and Beguiler cast off of their entire spell list.

Sandshaper is cute, but rather obscure.

Bloodline feats should be on Crystal keep. Adds one spell known per spell level.

Mage of the Arcane Order lets you pull spells out of your hat when you absolutely, positively need them. There's a limit to how many per day, but it shouldn't be that necessary to do it frequently with an intelligent spells known list.

Runestaves are the Nightsticks of Sorcerers... with enough, they break the game.

[Kosjsjach]

I'll second the Knowstones idea. You can find 'em in Dragon Mag #333 p.93.

The basic gist is for ([Spell level]^2)*1000gp, you get an additional spell known (0-level spells cost half as much as a 1st-level knowstone).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'll second the Knowstones idea. You can find 'em in Dragon Mag #333 p.93.

The basic gist is for ([Spell level]^2)*1000gp, you get an additional spell known (0-level spells cost half as much as a 1st-level knowstone).

Knowstones = cheese. Really, really stinky cheese.

[FishAreWet]

Knowstones = cheese. Really, really stinky cheese.

why? In any game were you need to power up a spontaneous caster, you're probably playing against perpared caster. At that point, Knowstones are hardly cheese to be worried about.

And tip for the OP, wands! :P And Eternal Wands! They don't expand your spells known, but they work great for those spells that you always need but rarely cast.

[Zaq]

Runestaves are the Nightsticks of Sorcerers... with enough, they break the game.

Really? Can't you only attune yourself to one at once (thus one per day)? They definitely make you more powerful, but they have diminishing returns as you get a whole handy haversack full of them, since you have to plan in advance which one you'll need.

Anyway, I say that if you don't have any prepared casters in your group, you don't need to power up spontaneous casters, since they're nominally balanced by not having crazy broad spell access. (They're not balanced, since they're still full casters, but that's the idea.) However, if your group is at the level of power of, say, rogues or warblades, you don't really need any more than what you get, and you'll still be the most powerful member of your party with minimal effort (assuming you know some basic optimization principles, such as that Denying Options Is Good and Blasty Damage Is Less Than Good).

Now, if you're trying to keep up with a bunch of prep casters, you'll definitely need the boost, but if you're only dealing with spontaneous ones, you probably don't really need any more.

Semi-related question with runestaves and similar: Can UMD let an arcane caster use an arcane slot instead of a divine one to use a spell from a Domain Staff (Complete Champion)? Would it be balanced to allow it?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Really? Can't you only attune yourself to one at once (thus one per day)? They definitely make you more powerful, but they have diminishing returns as you get a whole handy haversack full of them, since you have to plan in advance which one you'll need.

Actually while you can only attune yourself to one runestaff a day, you get two to five spells per staff and can use each spell in a runestaff 3/day, and like fisharewet said, expendables are an option. Wands, staffs, and scrolls ftw.

[JaronK]

Mage of the Arcane Order is definitely the easiest way to do this. It gives you all the utility spells you'd ever possibly want. Just pick strong general spells for your spells known and cover all utility with the Spellpool, and you're good to go.

JaronK

[Vizzerdrix]

Knowstones = cheese. Really, really stinky cheese.

Oh? I disagree. They take up a huge portion of character wealth and fix one of the many problems a Sorc has.


Candle of Invocation= Cheese because it can break the game.

Knowstone of web? okay, now the sorc can cast web. weeeee.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Oh? I disagree. They take up a huge portion of character wealth and fix one of the many problems a Sorc has.


Candle of Invocation= Cheese because it can break the game.

Knowstone of web? okay, now the sorc can cast web. weeeee.

I'm not overly familiar with knowstones; but, if I had to guess, I'd say the Cheesiness comes from the fact that now the sorcerer can be as versatile as the wizard without having to plan a day in advance, he literally has any and every spell he might need on hand via knowstone. Game successfully broken to tiny little pieces.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Mage of the Arcane Order is definitely the easiest way to do this. It gives you all the utility spells you'd ever possibly want. Just pick strong general spells for your spells known and cover all utility with the Spellpool, and you're good to go.

JaronK

Thanks to Arcane Prep, you can also make use of Pearls of Power.

[Aquillion]

I'm not overly familiar with knowstones; but, if I had to guess, I'd say the Cheesiness comes from the fact that now the sorcerer can be as versatile as the wizard without having to plan a day in advance, he literally has any and every spell he might need on hand via knowstone. Game successfully broken to tiny little pieces.

Yeah, it would do that... with infinite wealth.

But if you have infinite wealth, you can just pack a billion scrolls of everything. In an actual game, it lets you expand your spells known a little bit to grab spells you might have overlooked or for when you desperately need a bit more at one spell level. You pay through the nose for it, though.

Is it worth giving up or delaying bonuses to your casting stat, say?

[Zeful]

Knowstones = cheese. Really, really stinky cheese.

Knowstones=Pearls of Power<Baccob's Blessed Book≥Rings of Wizardy

Knowstones aren't really that cheesy. They're simply a way for classes like the Sorcerer to bypass the inherent limitations of the class. Which is no different to anything I listed above. In fact things like BBB are much worse than Knowstones, as the BBB removes much of the opportunity (and actual) cost of a Wizard choosing spells.

There's nothing wrong with Knowstones, the problem instead lies with the system.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Yeah, it would do that... with infinite wealth.

But if you have infinite wealth, you can just pack a billion scrolls of everything. In an actual game, it lets you expand your spells known a little bit to grab spells you might have overlooked or for when you desperately need a bit more at one spell level. You pay through the nose for it, though.

Is it worth giving up or delaying bonuses to your casting stat, say?

Thing is, the sorcerer doesn't have to keep the same knowstones. He can sell them, admittedly at diminishing returns, or if he's lucky he can find other sorcerers to trade with from time to time. He doesn't have the permanent versatility of a spellbook, but he does have the effectively infinite flexibility of being able to come up spells that he doesn't want to burn a spell known for whenever the need is likely to come up. Say you've been adventuring out in the wilderness for the last half-dozen adventures and you've got a knowstone of prying eyes that you've been using to scout and search. Now you've come to find out the next string of adventures is going to take place largely in dungeons. So you look for another sorcerer who has a knowstone of passwall and offer a trade. If he's got any use for prying eyes you just exchanged a spell known with only a few minutes of role-play instead of having to wait for a level up or going on a retraining quest or any of the myriad of other things that a sorcerer would normally have to do to accomplish the same feat.

Also realize that I never actually said knowstones were broken, just that I could see how a person might come to that conclusion.

[Vizzerdrix]

As my groups optimizer, I can vouch for Knowstones. They have never overpowered and spontaneous arcane caster's I've played, and that's saying something considering I use the UA generic caster. They are fairly priced for their function and this keeps them balanced. You will never see anyone with more than a handful at a time, and if sorc's wish to swap them, well then they are just trading like for like, and while this gives them a "new spell" they then loose the "old spell".

I could see knowstones being a reason for Sorc's to have mage duels. Winner gets either an existing knowstone from the looser, or helps them make one using one of their regular spells. Heck, even a wizard could get in on this. (would get a scroll of a spell the Sorc could cast and scribing fees.)