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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default kung-fu dragon build (not as good as the king of smack but most DMs should accept)

    Race: Lizardfolk, Poison Dusk
    Alignment: Lawful Good

    STATS (28 pts buy)
    STR 8
    DEX 10
    CON 16
    INT 14
    WIS 18
    CHA 6

    until you reach level 3 (with intuitive attack) it's going to be a challenge to hit something

    since you have 3 natural attacks to start with you get to take beast strike (stack unarmed damage + natural attack damage) and the multiattack feats

    while in dragon form you get 5 natural attacks (1 bite, 2 claws, 2 wings since you can only take medium shapes)+ your iteratives and flurry

    16/16/16/16/16/16/11/6/1 for 9 attacks while flurrying

    your damage is that of a full monk + the claws+ favored ennemy when it applies

    monk+form+VoP+favored ennemy+STR
    2d10+1d8+5+2+4= 3-28+11

    an exalted dragon form is the best I could find outside but if you have better suggestions let me know

    the build would work better with flaws to take pouce via wildshape uses (since dragons don't have it to start with)

    1 Ranger (wildshape variant, solitary hunter) sacred vow
    2 Ranger
    3 Ranger vow of poverty intuitive attack
    4 Ranger
    5 Ranger nymph's kiss
    6 Monk (martial monk variant)ascetic hunter bonus feat stunning fists
    7 Monk bonus feat weapon focus unarmed strikeTouch of Golden Ice
    8 Ranger
    9 Ranger multiattackNimbus of Light
    10 Ranger
    11 Ranger Exalted Wild Shape
    12 Ranger Dragon Wild Shape
    13 Ranger stigmata
    14 Ranger
    15 Ranger beast strike nemesis: undead
    16 ranger
    17 ranger nemesis: human
    18 Rangerimproved multiattack
    19 Rangernemesis:construct

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ElfMonkGuy

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    Default Re: kung-fu dragon build (not as good as the king of smack but most DMs should accept

    I may be being silly, but what exactly is it that this build does? What strategy does it use, and what key abilities does it rely on?
    Give me any character, and I will give you a freeform conversion.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: kung-fu dragon build (not as good as the king of smack but most DMs should accept

    Alright so

    you get a monk's unarmed damage (from monk + ascetic hunter)
    and a ranger's favored ennemies

    while being wildshaped (into a dinosaur or a dragon depending on the level)

    you're basically the team's scout (maxed hide, move silently, spot , listen) but with flying capacity and very decent damage and a really high DC on stunning fists (high WIS + a bonus from favored ennemies) and a lot of attacks

    vow of poverty gives you plenty of nice feats like intuitive attack, magical claws, and a bonus to your sensor capacities (nemesis makes you able to feel an ennemy 60ft away, even if he's invisible or concealed)

    so , in short, you're a flying monk with better stats, damage and a ranger's skills and BAB
    Last edited by Soranar; 2010-01-17 at 05:23 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #4
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: kung-fu dragon build (not as good as the king of smack but most DMs should accept

    So why the ranger and VoP? What exactly is their purpose for the build in principle?

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: kung-fu dragon build (not as good as the king of smack but most DMs should accept

    VoP gives you more feats than it cost , and it's one of the few things that works to pump you in wildshape (and since you can't cast like a druid, it's actually worth it)

    Ranger gives you full BAB, shifting, favored ennemies, more skillpoints and synergises well with monk
    Last edited by Soranar; 2010-01-17 at 05:59 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Troll in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: kung-fu dragon build (not as good as the king of smack but most DMs should accept

    Looks pretty good. Should be fun and effective. Wildshape actually plays nice with VOP and the extra attacks from monk. Monks suckiness is mitigated by wild shape. It isn't the greatest build ever, but with wild shape, will be viable in any number of encounters.

    My one suggestion would be to add in Master of Many Forms (Complete Warrior) for more and better shapes, sooner.
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  7. - Top - End - #7
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: kung-fu dragon build (not as good as the king of smack but most DMs should accept

    problem is the master of many forms is banned from my playgroup, and besides I just wanted a build that was decent without being broken

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: kung-fu dragon build (not as good as the king of smack but most DMs should accept

    Quote Originally Posted by Soranar View Post
    problem is the master of many forms is banned from my playgroup
    I am curious as to why.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: kung-fu dragon build (not as good as the king of smack but most DMs should accept

    Quote Originally Posted by Soranar View Post
    problem is the master of many forms is banned from my playgroup, and besides I just wanted a build that was decent without being broken
    You cannot Wildshape into a Dragon without MoMF. Sorry.

    Also, how are you Wildshaping into anything without Druid levels? If you are using Wildshape Ranger variant, then you forgot the part where you can only turn into Medium sized animals... no dinos for you either.
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  10. - Top - End - #10
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: kung-fu dragon build (not as good as the king of smack but most DMs should accept

    from chrystalkeep

    Dragon Wild Shape
    [General]
    (Dcn p105)
    Wild Shape class ability
    Wisdom 19
    Know (nature): 15 ranks
    You may use your Wild Shape ability to change into a Small or Medium Dragon.
    You gain all the Extraordinary and Supernatural abilities of the Dragon whose form you take, but not any
    Spell-like Abilities or Spellcasting powers.


    I'm just a medium dragon (more practical for dungeons anyway,although really not as strong)

    deynonichus are medium animals (with pounce)

    and I'll suggest that spell to my mage (he can spare a level 3 spell I think)
    Last edited by Soranar; 2010-01-18 at 01:36 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #11
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    Default Re: kung-fu dragon build (not as good as the king of smack but most DMs should accept

    Quote Originally Posted by Soranar View Post
    from chrystalkeep

    Dragon Wild Shape
    [General]
    (Dcn p105)
    Wild Shape class ability
    Wisdom 19
    Know (nature): 15 ranks
    You may use your Wild Shape ability to change into a Small or Medium Dragon.
    You gain all the Extraordinary and Supernatural abilities of the Dragon whose form you take, but not any
    Spell-like Abilities or Spellcasting powers.


    I'm just a medium dragon (more practical for dungeons anyway,although really not as strong)

    deynonichus are medium animals (with pounce)

    and I'll suggest that spell to my mage (he can spare a level 3 spell I think)
    Still can't turn into a Dinosaur... and this is actually less likely to be accepted by a GM than King of Smack by virtue of relying on Dragon Mag material
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2010-01-18 at 01:38 AM.
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  12. - Top - End - #12
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    SethFahad's Avatar

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    Default Re: kung-fu dragon build (not as good as the king of smack but most DMs should accept

    Quote Originally Posted by Soranar View Post
    from chrystalkeep

    [I]Dragon Wild Shape
    [General]
    (Dcn p105)
    Wild Shape class ability
    Wisdom 19
    Know (nature): 15 ranks
    Do you qualify for that?
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  13. - Top - End - #13
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    Default Re: kung-fu dragon build (not as good as the king of smack but most DMs should accept

    Quote Originally Posted by SethFahad View Post
    Do you qualify for that?
    Wildshape Ranger variant... yea, he qualifies for it.
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  14. - Top - End - #14
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: kung-fu dragon build (not as good as the king of smack but most DMs should accept

    Quote Originally Posted by SethFahad View Post
    Do you qualify for that?
    yes

    a shifting ranger variant (from SRD, you give up free combat feats) is a class feature to you

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: kung-fu dragon build (not as good as the king of smack but most DMs should accept

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Still can't turn into a Dinosaur... and this is actually less likely to be accepted by a GM than King of Smack by virtue of relying on Dragon Mag material
    guess I'll turn into a leopard then

    yet from SRD: Deinonychus Size/Type: Medium Animal what's the problem?

    my DM's rule are usually as follow: if it's too strong I won't allow it, subpar combos usually manage
    Last edited by Soranar; 2010-01-18 at 01:43 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #16

    Default Re: kung-fu dragon build (not as good as the king of smack but most DMs should accept

    Provided you're allowed medium animals (WS Ranger is), a medium dinosaur is a legal choice.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: kung-fu dragon build (not as good as the king of smack but most DMs should accept

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Still can't turn into a Dinosaur... and this is actually less likely to be accepted by a GM than King of Smack by virtue of relying on Dragon Mag material
    Draconomicon isn't Dragon Mag.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: kung-fu dragon build (not as good as the king of smack but most DMs should accept

    Quote Originally Posted by Soranar View Post
    guess I'll turn into a leopard then

    yet from SRD: Deinonychus Size/Type: Medium Animal what's the problem?

    my DM's rule are usually as follow: if it's too strong I won't allow it, subpar combos usually manage
    One-level dip in Barbarian for Lion Totem nets you the same thing without needing wildshape...
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  19. - Top - End - #19
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: kung-fu dragon build (not as good as the king of smack but most DMs should accept

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    One-level dip in Barbarian for Lion Totem nets you the same thing without needing wildshape...
    small alignment problem though

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    Default Re: kung-fu dragon build (not as good as the king of smack but most DMs should accept

    Quote Originally Posted by Soranar View Post
    small alignment problem though
    Unarmed Swordsage does everything this build does... better. Without tricks, without loopholes, without twelve different obscure sources.
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  21. - Top - End - #21
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: kung-fu dragon build (not as good as the king of smack but most DMs should accept

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Unarmed Swordsage does everything this build does... better. Without tricks, without loopholes, without twelve different obscure sources.
    man there is no need to be a ****. and, well, i disagree with you.

    this build get's almost full ranger spellcasting, transforming into a medium strength form with 5 natural attacks, and full level monk abilities. It is by no means a bad build!

    And not everyone is scared to use books outside of core. Some groups play with all the books published, don't diss a build because it doesn't fit into your group.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: kung-fu dragon build (not as good as the king of smack but most DMs should accept

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Unarmed Swordsage does everything this build does... better. Without tricks, without loopholes, without twelve different obscure sources.
    a swordsage build would have terrible stats, wouldn't fly (unless they have a trick I'm not aware of), no bonus to movement or detection from wildshapes, no spot, no favored enemies that you can always sense and no multiattacking goodness and no synergy with VoP

    nevermind spellcasting

    oh yeah it'd be great, just inferior in nearly every aspect (BAB included)

    nevermind teaching all the maneuver/strike stuff to my DM (oddly enough this build is simpler for him as he knows what I can do at all times: I'm just a monk/ranger in medium dragon form)
    Last edited by Soranar; 2010-01-18 at 02:03 AM.

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    Default Re: kung-fu dragon build (not as good as the king of smack but most DMs should accept

    Quote Originally Posted by FishAreWet View Post
    man there is no need to be a ****. and, well, i disagree with you.

    this build get's almost full ranger spellcasting, transforming into a medium strength form with 5 natural attacks, and full level monk abilities. It is by no means a bad build!

    And not everyone is scared to use books outside of core. Some groups play with all the books published, don't diss a build because it doesn't fit into your group.
    Full Ranger Spellcasting... wow... that's really something to write home about. Other than possibly Entangle and Greater Magic Fang, I can't think of anything in particular it would be useful for this build

    And you've got a bunch of attacks that don't have a chance of hitting anything, for average damage. Unarmed Swordsage has the same damage output, only can instead do things like resolve attacks as a touch attack, add an additional four attacks, stack on precision-based damage, *have two full rounds of attacks*, and can stack damage bonuses much easier. Plus have access to do things like Negate DR, Wind Walk, make your opponent hit himself, then step out of his reach in reaction to his first attack which keeps him from making a Full Attack on you, and many more fun and interesting things.

    This build... hits things. Sometimes. It has almost no defenses, since the Wild Shape you are limited to suck. The bonuses granted from VoP... stink, compared to gear-equivalent. It doesn't even do damage output very well. Heck, a straight Barbarian + Shock Trooper/Leap Attack is going to seriously out-damage it. Without resorting to Frenzied Berzerker nonsense or any Charger Build cheese.
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  24. - Top - End - #24
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    Zaydos's Avatar

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    Default Re: kung-fu dragon build (not as good as the king of smack but most DMs should accept

    What dragon form do you assume? Shadow Dragon seems like it could be nice (17 Str, +19 natural armor).
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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: kung-fu dragon build (not as good as the king of smack but most DMs should accept

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Full Ranger Spellcasting... wow... that's really something to write home about. Other than possibly Entangle and Greater Magic Fang, I can't think of anything in particular it would be useful for this build

    And you've got a bunch of attacks that don't have a chance of hitting anything, for average damage. Unarmed Swordsage has the same damage output, only can instead do things like resolve attacks as a touch attack, add an additional four attacks, stack on precision-based damage, *have two full rounds of attacks*, and can stack damage bonuses much easier. Plus have access to do things like Negate DR, Wind Walk, make your opponent hit himself, then step out of his reach in reaction to his first attack which keeps him from making a Full Attack on you, and many more fun and interesting things.

    This build... hits things. Sometimes. It has almost no defenses, since the Wild Shape you are limited to suck. The bonuses granted from VoP... stink, compared to gear-equivalent. It doesn't even do damage output very well. Heck, a straight Barbarian + Shock Trooper/Leap Attack is going to seriously out-damage it. Without resorting to Frenzied Berzerker nonsense or any Charger Build cheese.

    Full ranger spellcasting is still good. Especially if he does something like Sword of the Arcane Order. All those things you listed that swordsages can do? spell can do them too!

    And yes, Shock Trooper/Leap Attack will out-damage it. It will also outdamage your swordsage. Or just about any other melee build.


    But none of that is even the point. The guy works hard on this build, and honestly, I think it looks great. Yes, VoP is a trap, we all know that. Some people like it for flavor reasons though, so it's included in the build.

    He's turning into a dinosuar and doing kungfu, and your response is "no way man be a ninja instead!" that's what's bugging me the most. you're making irrelevant suggestions. you're not helping him.


    And on that note, I'll try to help.

    -Why Dusk Lizard? Human could get you VoP at level one, netting you an extra Exalted feat in the process.
    -If playing the build from a low level, push Touch of the Golden Ice into an earlier feat slot. The DC doesn't scale, so it's great at low level, but by the time you're level 9 or so, everything is going to make the save or be immune.
    -If you're willing to change the build up a little bit, if you could fit some scout levels in there, you could turn it into a great melee swift-hunter(google for a handbook on brilliant gameologists).
    -Shape Soulmeld (Something Claws) from Magic of Incarnum would net you pounce, but only with natural weapons. But that's all you're using.

  26. - Top - End - #26
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    Default Re: kung-fu dragon build (not as good as the king of smack but most DMs should accept

    Quote Originally Posted by FishAreWet View Post
    Full ranger spellcasting is still good. Especially if he does something like Sword of the Arcane Order. All those things you listed that swordsages can do? spell can do them too!

    And yes, Shock Trooper/Leap Attack will out-damage it. It will also outdamage your swordsage. Or just about any other melee build.


    But none of that is even the point. The guy works hard on this build, and honestly, I think it looks great. Yes, VoP is a trap, we all know that. Some people like it for flavor reasons though, so it's included in the build.

    He's turning into a dinosuar and doing kungfu, and your response is "no way man be a ninja instead!" that's what's bugging me the most. you're making irrelevant suggestions. you're not helping him.


    And on that note, I'll try to help.

    -Why Dusk Lizard? Human could get you VoP at level one, netting you an extra Exalted feat in the process.
    -If playing the build from a low level, push Touch of the Golden Ice into an earlier feat slot. The DC doesn't scale, so it's great at low level, but by the time you're level 9 or so, everything is going to make the save or be immune.
    -If you're willing to change the build up a little bit, if you could fit some scout levels in there, you could turn it into a great melee swift-hunter(google for a handbook on brilliant gameologists).
    -Shape Soulmeld (Something Claws) from Magic of Incarnum would net you pounce, but only with natural weapons. But that's all you're using.
    Swift Hunter *would* greatly increase damage output, since you can just pump your Ranger levels for both monk and scout stuff. And with Dinky for Pounce, you'd be practically guaranteeing yourself Skirmish damage on every hit.

    You still need to boost your attack bonuses if you want to hit anything. Dragon shape actually is a big trap, since all the nifty stuff are (Su) abilities (like Fear Aura, SR, Breath weapon, and just about everything else). So Dinky form would probably, mechanically, be stronger, just due to pounce.

    Although, I still prefer the Kung Fu Bear... Lion Totem Barbarian + Bear Warrior + Warshaper + Superior Unarmed Strike/Monk's Belt (wildling clasp) + Improved Natural Attack. You're a Dire Bear... who knows Kung Fu. Mechanically better in almost every regard to your current build. You can build in Power Attack, Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper to increase damage output. And you're *still* a Kung Fu Bear... who hits really, really hard. But it isn't, by any means, necessary. IIRC, something like 6d8 base damage with an effective gargantuan-sized attack.
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2010-01-18 at 02:57 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Underlord View Post
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  27. - Top - End - #27
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: kung-fu dragon build (not as good as the king of smack but most DMs should accept

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Full Ranger Spellcasting... wow... that's really something to write home about. Other than possibly Entangle and Greater Magic Fang, I can't think of anything in particular it would be useful for this build
    ah , lacking imagination

    spike growth, barkskin, animal growth and non-detection are always useful

    most of the other spells are situational , trap disarming summons, alarms, snares, healing spells for outside combat

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    And you've got a bunch of attacks that don't have a chance of hitting anything, for average damage.
    BAB 17+10 to hit from WIS (23 WIS + 8 from VoP)+5 from VoP enchantments+1 from weapon focus and maybe +2 if you're a favored ennemy and I get 5 full BAB attacks, +35 to hit sure sounds terrible with true seeing always on and blindsense

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Unarmed Swordsage has the same damage output, only can instead do things like resolve attacks as a touch attack, add an additional four attacks, stack on precision-based damage, *have two full rounds of attacks*, and can stack damage bonuses much easier.
    my damage is 2d10+ 7 str (+6 enhancement VoP)+ natural attack damage+5 from VoP+2 favored ennemy (if it applies)

    my basic turn is 8 attacks (5 full BAB) or 9 if I flurry (6 with -2) , most of the time , since I have better stats than you, I'll just do more in 1 round than you do in 2

    now I have a mage to cast more buffs but logically you would have the same with the same results so I won't bother with that

    since my wildshapes are exalted I can smite my character level 1/day and all of my attacks have touch of golden ice, considering the number of them you're bound to fail a couple of saves on a 1 despite the low DC

    my stunning fist's DC is 28


    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Plus have access to do things like Negate DR, Wind Walk, make your opponent hit himself, then step out of his reach in reaction to his first attack which keeps him from making a Full Attack on you, and many more fun and interesting things.
    Negate DR I can't beat that, but you can't use every ability of a swordsage at the same time unless you're level 20, I scale better

    windwalk requires you to make a save every round or fall, and have you ever chased someone with that ? that doesn't fix your terrible movement problem (wizard has 60ft flying with fly, I get 150ft)

    and if you mention magic item this build was intended without using them, although most effects can be replicated by a friendly mage (who happens to ride me in dragon form)

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    This build... hits things. Sometimes. It has almost no defenses, since the Wild Shape you are limited to suck. The bonuses granted from VoP... stink, compared to gear-equivalent.
    the point of the build was fun, VoP is crap true, but I like it and my DM tends to ban abusive magic items, this way I know what I'm dealing with

    arguing that using UMD is better is obvious, I avoided it on purpose


    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    It doesn't even do damage output very well. Heck, a straight Barbarian + Shock Trooper/Leap Attack is going to seriously out-damage it. Without resorting to Frenzied Berzerker nonsense or any Charger Build cheese.
    with greater mighty wallop and enlarge, I really doubt that but without a caster to help, yeah I agree

    but 1 big thing is that shifting heals you completely, and dragons can speak so I can always heal myself a couple of times a day and I have no problem talking to my friends or fitting in a dungeon

    this makes me a lot more useful than a barb (who also can't fly)
    and I can always me some ubercharger's mount , which is hilarious

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
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    Default Re: kung-fu dragon build (not as good as the king of smack but most DMs should accept

    Quote Originally Posted by FishAreWet View Post
    -Why Dusk Lizard? Human could get you VoP at level one, netting you an extra Exalted feat in the process.
    -If playing the build from a low level, push Touch of the Golden Ice into an earlier feat slot. The DC doesn't scale, so it's great at low level, but by the time you're level 9 or so, everything is going to make the save or be immune.
    -If you're willing to change the build up a little bit, if you could fit some scout levels in there, you could turn it into a great melee swift-hunter(google for a handbook on brilliant gameologists).
    -Shape Soulmeld (Something Claws) from Magic of Incarnum would net you pounce, but only with natural weapons. But that's all you're using.
    dusk lizard for the ranger favored class (yeah we play with that, boohoo) and to qualify for the multiattack feats (you need 3 natural weapons to qualify)

    I thought about scout (3 levels ain't that bad for BAB -1 , AC+1 and 5d6 damage on the first round to lose a little unarmed damage) but I'd only get it pretty late (around level 9-12) to fit it in, I still might though since it would work well with the pouncing/flying dragon theme

    I dunno the soulmeld thing, I'll have to look it up, my DM might accept a couple of flaws though so I might just take pounce from sacrificing wildshapes (and getting the extra wildshape feat)

    now if I could get another guy to turn into a tiger (lion of talisid?) to make a bad pun
    Last edited by Soranar; 2010-01-18 at 03:11 AM.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Default Re: kung-fu dragon build (not as good as the king of smack but most DMs should accept

    I'd just like to chip in that the build looks fun, flavorful, and powerful enough to contribute without being overwhelming or able to conquer any situation alone. I like it.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Wings of Peace's Avatar

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    Jun 2009
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    Default Re: kung-fu dragon build (not as good as the king of smack but most DMs should accept

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    You cannot Wildshape into a Dragon without MoMF. Sorry.
    Schneekey you silly fool! You have forgotten the one rule of Wildshape! If it's Planar Shepard anything is possible!
    Doc Roc: We're going to eat ourselves.

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