binder

[awa]

what is the binder (i think that's what it's called) and where is it from

Also what is it good for and people general opinion of the class

[arguskos]

The Binder is a class from the Tome of Magic (D&D 3.5). It summons souls from beyond the universe, makes deals with them, and gains their powers (binds them to the binder himself for their power). The Binder is supremely versatile and useful to have around, even though they aren't really super powerful or earth-shattering, just good to have.

[Boci]

Its a base class from Tome of Magic. Generally considered to be fun since it is very versatile but not too strong, although it does take a while to get use to, lots of new mechanics.

[arguskos]

Its a base class from Tome of Magic. Generally considered to be fun since it is very versatile but not too strong, although it does take a while to get use to, lots of new mechanics.

Once you get Effective Binding Level down, you're golden. Does take a few minutes though. Not as much as Shadowcasting or *shudders* Incarnum, though.

[sofawall]

Once you get Effective Binding Level down, you're golden. Does take a few minutes though. Not as much as Shadowcasting or *shudders* Incarnum, though.

I found Incarnum fairly easy.

[awa]

so how do bindings work?

[Lycan 01]

Will there be a 4e Binder class? They sound interesting...

[arguskos]

I found Incarnum fairly easy.

I did as well, but the intricacies are tricky to master. It's a fiddly system, though very very neat.

So far, the least intuitive system I've found in 3.5 was probably Shadowcasting, though I LOVE IT SO MUCH. Arrow of Dusk and Life Fades at level 1 are like omgwtfbbq amazing.

Binds basically work by making a Diplomacy check against the vestige (the thing you bind to yourself) you wish to bind. However, each vestige has a "vestige level", and you have to be a certain level binder to bind the higher level vestiges. Your Effective Binding Level determines what level vestige you can bind. Then, you just draw their seal (takes one minute and might have special requirements, vestige depending) and make a Diplomacy check against them. If you win, you bind them with no side effects. If you lose, you STILL bind them, but they influence you (minor rp and mechanical effects). It's that simple really.

[Innis Cabal]

I found the Shadowcaster to have a rapid rate of decline in fun as the party grew more powerful. The same couldn't be said for the binder who tended to be ho-hum to sorta neat as you got stronger and stronger. The issue with both classess was lack of support.

[arguskos]

I found the Shadowcaster to have a rapid rate of decline in fun as the party grew more powerful. The same couldn't be said for the binder who tended to be ho-hum to sorta neat as you got stronger and stronger. The issue with both classess was lack of support.

I haven't gotten a high-end Shadowcaster running, but I can see that.

And yes, the lack of ToM support really makes me cry. I loved the Binder and Shadowcaster to pieces. ToM is my second favorite book in all of 3.5, after Dragon Compendium.

[Runestar]

Will there be a 4e Binder class? They sound interesting...

It was integrated into the warlock class, IIRC. Should be in arcane power, if I am not wrong. They are basically daily powers which grant encounter-long benefits and improve your pact powers.

[Innis Cabal]

I haven't gotten a high-end Shadowcaster running, but I can see that.

And yes, the lack of ToM support really makes me cry. I loved the Binder and Shadowcaster to pieces. ToM is my second favorite book in all of 3.5, after Dragon Compendium.

I've got agree....it was creative, innovative, and with some simple erreta even the True Namer could have been good. Espcially with more support.

Shadowcaster was good when mixed with Noctumancer, but that was no longer on its own power. So hardly fair. The PrC's for the class made them -much- more fun. So in the end, it was like sorcerer. PrC required at the higher levels. Straight 20 shadowcaster will be easily left behind in combat.

[arguskos]

I've got agree....it was creative, innovative, and with some simple erreta even the True Namer could have been good. Espcially with more support.

Shadowcaster was good when mixed with Noctumancer, but that was no longer on its own power. So hardly fair. The PrC's for the class made them -much- more fun. So in the end, it was like sorcerer. PrC required at the higher levels. Straight 20 shadowcaster will be easily left behind in combat.

Well, when dealing with heavily op'd stuff, yeah, the Shadowcaster can't keep up. In most groups though, it's just fine. I mean, hell, a Shadowcaster just lolwtfpwned a couple of my players. Life Fades took out a Ranger in one hit, and Arrow of Dusk really hammered a few other players. If it wasn't for a lucky light crossbow crit, he'd have gotten away from the fight too.

Yeah, we're level one, and that Shadowcaster got in a good few non-lethal hits, but it was awesome anyways.

Also, a level 2 binder with Imp Binding who has bound Paimon? SO AWESOME.

[sonofzeal]

Binders

POWER --- 5/10. They're middle of the road generally, not horrible but unlikely to really amaze. Infinite free healing (via Buer) is nice in some groups though.

FLUFF --- 10/10. Absolutely amazing here, there's a huge amount of fluff and it's very well written. You also get situations where the Cleric's all "I pray to my god for an hour", the Wizard's all "I read my spellbook for an hour", and the Binder's all "I start summoning twisted entities from outside space and time to bargain with them for strange cosmic powers. For an hour." And that's from level one, as part of your default class description.

EASE --- 3/10. Could be worse, but is still a lot to keep track of, especially if you plan to ever switch Vestiges

FUN --- 8/10. The flexibility is a big part of what makes this work. Whatever situation you're in, there's probably a vistage that would help. You can't always access it fast enough, but it's still fun playing around with it. You get to do weird things that are not always powerful but are usually fun and interesting and different.

[Kelb_Panthera]

ToM's lack of support really is tragic. They didn't even get errata up for it, even though it appears they wrote some. Binder is pretty neat, and I (prepare to be horrified) liked the truenamer (be horrified.) Some of the vestiges that binders use had pretty neat lore to go with them too.

Edit: almost forgot. If you do make a binder make sure to get those magic rugs with the ready to use seals for your favorites/ the more situationaly useful ones, so you can bind 'em in a hurry.

[Vauron]

Binders
You also get situations where the Cleric's all "I pray to my god for an hour", the Wizard's all "I read my spellbook for an hour", and the Binder's all "I start summoning twisted entities from outside space and time to bargain with them for strange cosmic powers. For five minutes, after which I spend the rest of the time you all are preparing spells writing a tell-all book concerning the party."

Because if you need an hour to bind four vestiges (and you'd only be binding one at level 1), something is wrong.


There is nothing wrong with liking the truenamer, or at least its fluff. I really liked the truenamer, which made me sad after doing maths on it. The mechanics were always the problem with truenaming.

[Innis Cabal]

Well, when dealing with heavily op'd stuff, yeah, the Shadowcaster can't keep up. In most groups though, it's just fine. I mean, hell, a Shadowcaster just lolwtfpwned a couple of my players. Life Fades took out a Ranger in one hit, and Arrow of Dusk really hammered a few other players. If it wasn't for a lucky light crossbow crit, he'd have gotten away from the fight too.

Yeah, we're level one, and that Shadowcaster got in a good few non-lethal hits, but it was awesome anyways.

Also, a level 2 binder with Imp Binding who has bound Paimon? SO AWESOME.

I find most OP is good on paper but not good on play. I much prefer the "weaker" classes that always do what the tin says. Saying such, that is exactly what you get with Shadowcaster and Binder. There are no tricks. You want a light armored caster that is a perfect support role? Ya, you have Shadowcaster to pick that up, and how.

[sonofzeal]

Because if you need an hour to bind four vestiges (and you'd only be binding one at level 1), something is wrong.

Well, it only requires five minutes, but if you've got an eldritch abomination on speed dial, why not chat it up for a bit?

[Flickerdart]

Isn't Acererak a vestige now? That guy would have some great stories to tell.

Truenamer fluff is pretty sweet, yeah. There are a couple of fixes around the boards, but there seems to be a tendency with homebrewers to overcomplicate things which turns me off. Not saying that it's bad, it's great that they've written so much on it. But a forum is no replacement for even a properly typeset PDF, never mind a book. Maybe over the summer I'll, author permitting, lay out that one homebrew Truenamer properly.

[arguskos]

Isn't Acererak a vestige now? That guy would have some great stories to tell.

Truenamer fluff is pretty sweet, yeah. There are a couple of fixes around the boards, but there seems to be a tendency with homebrewers to overcomplicate things which turns me off. Not saying that it's bad, it's great that they've written so much on it. But a forum is no replacement for even a properly typeset PDF, never mind a book. Maybe over the summer I'll, author permitting, lay out that one homebrew Truenamer properly.

I'd recommend Kellus' work. It's really freaking awesome stuff. He gave it a serious overhaul, and it shows.

@Innis: Yeah, but the Shadowcaster can do some pretty amazing stuff at higher levels, if you take the right mysteries, and get some good amounts of bonus feats. I do like them though, even if they're not the best class ever. They're just so fun (same with Binders).

[Kelb_Panthera]

Because if you need an hour to bind four vestiges (and you'd only be binding one at level 1), something is wrong.


There is nothing wrong with liking the truenamer, or at least its fluff. I really liked the truenamer, which made me sad after doing maths on it. The mechanics were always the problem with truenaming.

The part most people would find horrifying about my fondness for the class is that I like it as-is.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

For the record, ToM did get support in a few online expansions and Dragon magazines, but only for the Binder.

[Draz74]

Yeah, Shadowcaster is a lot like a Sorcerer with half the spells known, 1/6th of the spells-per-day. It's got a lot of power, but terrible endurance. Ultimate incarnation of the narcoleptic adventurer syndrome.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Yeah, Shadowcaster is a lot like a Sorcerer with half the spells known, 1/6th of the spells-per-day. It's got a lot of power, but terrible endurance. Ultimate incarnation of the narcoleptic adventurer syndrome.

the per day part of mysteries was probably balanced toward the possibility that a player would stick to nothing but low level mysteries which can, by late game, be used 3/day as su abilities.

[Innis Cabal]

For the record, ToM did get support in a few online expansions and Dragon magazines, but only for the Binder.

Thats not really a whole lot of support, nor is it really open for the massess to use without printing (messy) or have a connection to the internet all the time (not always going to happen). Support would be a splat book.

[JaronK]

And unfortunately, the online material for Binders is FAR stronger than the book, making some of those vestiges (the one that starts with Z being the worst) far too automatic as choices.

The Truenamer just didn't work. Great concept, but didn't go anywhere... so they didn't support it.

JaronK

[Vauron]

Didn't the shadowcaster get a few mysteries from online supplements? I think it was only nine mysteries added, but they did exist.

[Foryn Gilnith]

For Truenaming-type magic, I prefer original Vancian flavor.

[Optimystik]

ToM's lack of support really is tragic. They didn't even get errata up for it, even though it appears they wrote some. Binder is pretty neat, and I (prepare to be horrified) liked the truenamer (be horrified.) Some of the vestiges that binders use had pretty neat lore to go with them too.

While this is true, Binder got far more support than anything else in that book.

Both Binders and Shadowcasters got all the support they need from PrCs. Child of Night and Noctumancer for SCs are amazing, as is Knight of the Sacred Seal for Binder. Anima Mage is just crazy awesome, and is even suggested for use with Psionics.

Truenamer got... uh... hey, what's that over there?

For Truenaming-type magic, I prefer original Vancian flavor.

Vancian can die in a fire as far as I'm concerned, but that's another discussion entirely.

[Blackfang108]

For the record, ToM did get support in a few online expansions and Dragon magazines, but only for the Binder.

Actually, shadowcaster DID, in fact, get a web bit from Cityscape with nine new mysteries, including the most confusing mystery/spell/power ever.

No, I don't have a link. I just have a printed page somewhere.