[4e] Optimized ritual user?

[Ichneumon]

Personally, I love rituals and that's also why I prefer to play characters that can use them. I want to build a character that, although certainly viable in combat (as that's what you do in D&D) is also very much focussed on using as much rituals as possible.

However, I have no idea how to do this. Picking a class that gets "Ritual caster" as a free feat (like Invoker, Bard, Wizard or Psion) is a must. Invoker, Psion and Bard have the advantage of getting to cast a certain ritual free of cost once per day. In essence this means you get to use your components for a rituals so this would be good. Wizards however get to add extra rituals to there spellbook as they level up.

For feats, you could choose Expert Ritualist and apart from that there are some Vistani feats that grant you extra free uses of certain rituals per day.

Any advise on how to do this?

[Aharon]

I'm away from books, so my advice is a bit blurry.

One way is to convince your group to go all-arcane, so everyone has Arcana as class skill and can help you with your ritual checks. That's up to +8 to your check.

You could take that +2wis +2int race (from phb2, i think). They can add 1d6 to a check as a racial power. This can be improved to +1d8 via a feat.

In one of the earliest, free Dragon Magazines was a wizard utility power 2 that allows you to reroll skill checks.

That's all I have in mind right now. I think I wrote down some of my ideas somewhere, I'll be back when I found it.

[Kurald Galain]

I don't think it's possible to optimize rituals much. For one, for the majority it doesn't really matter all that much what your skill or skill roll is.

You need bard, because a substantial amount of rites are bard-only. Other than that it's a simple matter of taking skill focus in arcana, religion and nature, finding a +arcana race, and using backgrounds or powers to reroll them as much as possible. But it takes a lot of resources to make a marginal difference here.

It's probably more worthwhile to invest in a solid way of making money, assuming your DM lets you do that. See if you can houserule a perform skill. Farm rust monsters. Make major purchases with the Counterfeit ritual. Be epic level, use Enchant Magic Item at a discount, then sell the items at full price. Stuff like that makes a far bigger difference.

[Galdor Miriel]

We have a great house rule, which allows us to use most rituals at 10% the cost. They become cool, useful and used at that point which has improved our game. My ritual caster is a cleric with an intelligence of 11, but I still enjoy rituals because the cosr is so low that they are worthwhile. We used phantom steed last sessions to speed across the continent and I managed to summon horses that could run on water. In game it was brilliant.

I think there is a magic item that gives you a bonus on the check, skill focus and training of course, pumping intelligence would help as well and you could get a +2 to a check from a background.

Good luck.

[Ichneumon]

Let's see, If I would use an eladrin bard with a intelligence of 16 before adding the +2 racial bonus, would take skill focus arcana and a background bonus of +2... I would get an arcana score of +16, at level 1. I'd also get 2 rituals for free and get to cast 1 each day without needing to expend components.

If on the other hand I'd use an eladrin wizard with the same intelligence score, I'd get more rituals, yet I can't cast bard rituals. I could however spend 1 feat on multiclassing to bard to be able to cast them.

However, with a deva instead of eladrin, I'd miss out on the +2 arcana racial bonus, but I'd get the power that let's me add 1d6 to a skill roll, which is arguably better.

[Aharon]

@Kurald
Yes, but those where it matters can be interesting. I think reaching the 40 at level 8 or so was rather easy. You can make that really fast flying mounts, which at that level is still relevant, I guess.
Or you could make a magic circle that absolutely nobody could enter.

[Leolo]

@Kurald
Yes, but those where it matters can be interesting. I think reaching the 40 at level 8 or so was rather easy. You can make that really fast flying mounts, which at that level is still relevant, I guess.
Or you could make a magic circle that absolutely nobody could enter.

Or search for treasures the next 200fields arround.
Or create false gold at a exchange rate of 1 to 100 that last a day.

There are some very interesting rituals a wizard could learn that do make a remarkable difference.

[Hal]

Don't forget that Clerics get Ritual Casting as well.

. . . Not that they have anything going for them in that regard, but they can do it.

[Edge of Dreams]

There's a ring in AV, I believe that allows halving the time and component cost of rituals. Possibly Ritualist's Ring, I think. There's also an epic destiny out there that has a feature of improving your rituals and maybe a paragon path as well. Anyone remember where those are?

[Theodoric]

Don't forget that Clerics get Ritual Casting as well.

. . . Not that they have anything going for them in that regard, but they can do it.

They are quite good at Heal rituals, including Gentle Repose, Cure Affliction (or something like that) and Raise Dead, all very important if not crucial.

[Chaelos]

Honestly, the main burn for 4E rituals is the (relatively) large cost associated with mastering and then performing each one. If you can get a DM to houserule that away via homebrew feats or something, you're already more or less optimized for ritual casting.

[Hal]

They are quite good at Heal rituals, including Gentle Repose, Cure Affliction (or something like that) and Raise Dead, all very important if not crucial.

Ah yes, I forgot.

It still bugs me that Religion is an Int based skill. It just seems counter-intuitive that Religion-based skill checks (and thus rituals as well) would be better performed by a Wizard or Bard than by a Cleric or Paladin.

*Shrug*. Ah well.

[Optimystik]

It still bugs me that Religion is an Int based skill. It just seems counter-intuitive that Religion-based skill checks (and thus rituals as well) would be better performed by a Wizard or Bard than by a Cleric or Paladin.

*Shrug*. Ah well.

It's INT-based in 3.5 too, isn't it?

[Townopolis]

There is a feat in Arcane Power that allows you to use Arcana for all your rituals. It saves you a bunch on skills and you can stick with pumping Arcana for everything.

Unfortunately, I believe it is in the paragon tier, so not until level 11.

[Swordgleam]

If you have extra stat points lying around after getting Int as high as you can, I suggest putting some into Dex.

It's great to be able to make food and mounts and stuff, but if the ritualist has decent dex, you can do things like cast Tenser's Floating Disk, load the rest of the party onto it, and do all the sneaking/balancing that needs to be done.

[Hal]

It's INT-based in 3.5 too, isn't it?

Yes, and it seemed counter-intuitive when I was playing 3.5, too.

I know it's a knowledge skill, but it just always struck me as odd.

[Chaelos]

There is a feat in Arcane Power that allows you to use Arcana for all your rituals. It saves you a bunch on skills and you can stick with pumping Arcana for everything.

Unfortunately, I believe it is in the paragon tier, so not until level 11.

Unless it's been errata'ed somewhere, I was under the impression that this feat only applied to one ritual at a time. At least, if it's the one I'm thinking of.

[Swordgleam]

Unless it's been errata'ed somewhere, I was under the impression that this feat only applied to one ritual at a time. At least, if it's the one I'm thinking of.

Arcane Ritualist. Change one ritual's key still to Arcana and get a +2 bonus. You can change which ritual it applies to whenever you learn a new ritual, and you can take it multiple times.

[DabblerWizard]

Since it hasn't been brought up yet, let me mention that druids also have ritual casting, and they get to cast animal messenger once a day without using components.

Other than what's been described, it seems hard to mechanically optimize as a ritual caster at this point.

In game, you can become a super duper ritual guru by finding as many rituals as possible. Loot the nearest wizard archive if you have to.

[Edit]

As a DM, I made a homebrew rule that said that ritual casters could "master" any ritual, regardless of the level.

I placed a restriction in the player's ability to cast the ritual properly, however, by saying that any ritual 1-2 levels above the character's level has a 50% of failure, 3-4 levels above has a 75% chance of failure, and 5+ has a 100% chance. (Just roll a percent die after the character finishes preparing the ritual. Because they are toying with magic that is beyond their current skill, there's a chance their efforts will fail, and backfire on them in some way.)


In this way, you could convince your ritual hungry players to acquire rituals even before they can realistically use them.

[Kurald Galain]

As a DM, I made a homebrew rule that said that ritual casters could "master" any ritual, regardless of the level.

I placed a restriction in the player's ability to cast the ritual properly, however, by saying that any ritual 1-2 levels above the character's level has a 50% of failure,

Considering that casting a ritual of your level or higher costs a significant chunk of your available wealth, this strikes me as a really bad deal for the PCs. Most rituals are already underpowered and overcosted without adding additional changes of failure.

[CCM]

It's incredibly late, but the epic destiny Magister has a 30th level feature that allows the casting of rituals as a standard action twice daily. That is about as optimized as ritual casters get, it seems, since there are rituals that essentially shut down an enemy with no save, and the ability to use things like Magic Circle and Raise Dead with a standard action is some pretty phenomenal cheese.

[Leolo]

Most rituals are already underpowered and overcosted without adding additional changes of failure.

Compare a healing potion (50gp per useage) with for example low level rituals that let you avoid danger or can be used to ambush opponents. Explorers fire costs you 10GP and may save you from beeing eaten in the wilderness. Or spending multiple healings on avoiding beeing eaten.

I would not consider most rituals overcosted at all. Most of them create very unique effects that are in general far better than consumables of the same level - for a lower price. For example it is far better to let your druid create a nearly undetectable campsite that expenses 15GP than to buy items to prepare for situations where you are unable to sleep, or ambushed or something like that.

Ritual costs are preparation costs. That does not mean you have to expense more money than normal.

There are even rituals that actively save you money (like transfer enchantment) or create it from nothing (like fool's gold).

[Kurald Galain]

Explorers fire costs you 10GP and may save you from beeing eaten in the wilderness. Or spending multiple healings on avoiding beeing eaten.

Setting a watch costs nothing and may save you from being eaten in the wilderness.

Most of them create very unique effects that are in general far better than consumables of the same level

Ah, but note that almost all consumables (with a few exceptions, such as healing potions) are also overpriced and underpowered, so this isn't such a useful comparison.

This is a design feature: consumables are not intended to upstage actual character powers, and therefore they are made to be weaker than powers. However, they also cost money (and in some cases, a lot of money). So you end up paying for something that an actual power can do better, and for free.

[Leolo]

Setting a watch costs nothing and may save you from being eaten in the wilderness.

But a watch won't hide your camp. It will not fasten your sleep. Or gave your opponents mali to perceipt you. Rituals could do this easily.

You will nearly always set up a watch in a dangerous place, so the question is only: A watch and some improvements via rituals or a watch and no improvements via rituals? I would choose the first.

Also there are tasks that can not be accomplished without rituals. For example: Is traveling 10 times as fast or via teleport worthless? No. But it may be more expensive than walk the road the hard way. Most times you will not need it. But if you need it, it is more than worth the costs. Because you can not do it without rituals.

[Kurald Galain]

Also there are tasks that can not be accomplished without rituals. For example: Is traveling 10 times as fast or via teleport worthless? No. But it may be more expensive than walk the road the hard way. Most times you will not need it. But if you need it, it is more than worth the costs. Because you can not do it without rituals.

Note that I said that most rituals are already underpowered and overcosted. Since you're only finding a handful that aren't, you're essentially proving my point for me.

Yes, teleportation rituals are useful. Yes, so are raise dead, remove affliction, and tenser's floating disk. And yes, most of the other rituals are overpriced and underpowered (a fun example being a "fast travel" ritual that takes a full hour to cast; if you're in a hurry you don't usually have an hour). And yes, a good DM can handwave or houserule that to avoid the issue.

[Leolo]

Note that I said that most rituals are already underpowered and overcosted. Since you're only finding a handful that aren't, you're essentially proving my point for me.

I would turn the argument arround. I am finding only a handful that are overcosted. Underpowered? I would not even have something to scale this, because there is nothing in the game that let you accomplish the things you can do with rituals out of...rituals.

But i find plenty of rituals that are worth their money. More than my hands (and my wizards) could grasp in fact.

Is your list of worthy rituals really complete? No, not even approximative. It even ignores very good rituals that are already mentioned here.

[Kurald Galain]

I would turn the argument arround. I am finding only a handful that are overcosted. Underpowered? I would not even have something to scale this, because there is nothing in the game that let you accomplish the things you can do with rituals out of...rituals.

Yes there is: they're called skills.

For instance, the Seek Rumor ritual duplicates the effect of a streetwise check, but is both more expensive and takes longer than a streetwise check. The Eye of Alarm ritual duplicates the effect of setting watch, but is both more expensive and less effective than simply setting a watch (and note that several races don't need sleep!). Discern Lies is trumped by insight or diplomacy, Locate Object is slower, more expensive and less effective than perception, and so forth.

That's four concrete examples in this post, and zero in your last.

[Yakk]

Sure. Except you get about 5 skills, and getting a new one costs a feat (or sometimes half a feat with MC).

Getting ritual caster requires a feat (or half a feat with MC). The rituals cost a lot at the level you get them, but 5-10 levels later they are just as effective (because they scale with your skill typically) and or now utterly dirt cheap (5 levels later, they "cost 1/5 as much", 10 levels later they "cost 1/25 as much", because you are 5x and 25x richer after 5 and 10 levels respectively).

So for the cost of half a feat, you get a bunch of utility that is hard to reproduce (a mule in your pocket, being able to quiz the DM on which door to open, bringing dead compatriots back from the dead in the middle of the feywild, teleporting through magic circles), plus you can for a small price duplicate what other skills do with an Arcana check!

So a level 8 character with +19 arcana (background, racial, trained, 22 int) can spend 0.6% (1/170 -- petty cash) of their group's expected cash income for the level and generate a +14 streetwise gather information check from within a locked room of the inn.

At level 8, in order to get a +14 streetwise check you need training and a dex of 20. So if you do have a rogue (or someone else who invested resources in streetwise), the rogue will be better at it than you if the rogue can safely sneak out of the hidey-hole you are in...

[DabblerWizard]

Considering that casting a ritual of your level or higher costs a significant chunk of your available wealth, this strikes me as a really bad deal for the PCs. Most rituals are already underpowered and overcosted without adding additional changes of failure.

Well, without the rule, players can only cast rituals of their level or lower. The rule was supposed to allow them access to a greater number of rituals, a few levels above theirs, while curtailing potential abuse of rituals far beyond their level... like a level 5 character casting Control Weather. That would be a no no.

[Leolo]

Same with eye of alarm. Yes it is like someone holding watch.

But it hasn't to be you or one of your comrades, so the group saves 2 hours rest time.

And the eye(s) may have darkvision, tremorsense, extreme high stealth, higher perception than you and be up to 5 eyes holding watch the whole day and night.

And it could be made permanent for one place. Costs? 25 gp + 100 gp focus.

Overprized? For 5 permanent watchers? Even lowlevel characters could use it to create three watching eyes with darkvision.

Same with Detect Object.

Yes you could search the area the hard way. And yes - you could be faster (unlikely, but hey...lady luck is a nice person sometimes).

But is it better? Imagine searching for a ring anywhere in the dungeon. Is it really better to open all doors and look if there is a monster or a ring or a monster with your ring then to simple know where to search?