Building a super grappler

[Goonthegoof]

I'm trying to create a character that kills by grappling in a level 15 gestalt game. She's a vampire, improving grappling damage is pointless because she'll be killing via blood drain. So basically what I'm looking for is anything and everything that increases her ability to grapple. So far searching around I've found reaping mauler, Goliath, belt of growth, armbands of might and grips of the titan. Any other ideas?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Any way to counter Freedom of Movement?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I'm trying to create a character that kills by grappling in a level 15 gestalt game. She's a vampire, improving grappling damage is pointless because she'll be killing via blood drain. So basically what I'm looking for is anything and everything that increases her ability to grapple. So far searching around I've found reaping mauler, Goliath, belt of growth, armbands of might and grips of the titan. Any other ideas?

Use almost none of those. The best grapplers are druids, Clerics, and PsyWars. Druid and PsyWar are my preference, since they rely less on stinky stinky cheese to get powerful buffs up for each combat. Non-caster grapplers are basically screwed against monsters since monsters have high HD(for BAB), large size(for bonuses), and massive Str. And keep in mind that by this point, the majority of stuff that doesn't have the numbers to try to grapple with you has either Dimension Door or Freedom of Movement. Grappling becomes very difficult after about level 8.

[Grumman]

Goliath, for Powerful Build
Goliath Spirit Bear Totem Barbarian, for Improved Grab
Warblade (or any ToB class), for Constrict (via Crushing Weight of the Mountain)

Improved Grab also lets you qualify for a few feats from Serpent Kingdoms.
If you want to go with Sstoopidtallkid's suggestion, you can take the Powerful Wild Shape feat, too.

[Goonthegoof]

I'm almost certainly going to be grappling medium sized enemies, not a lot of spellcasters around.

[Goonthegoof]

Doesn't construct not give you anything but damage?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I'm almost certainly going to be grappling medium sized enemies, not a lot of spellcasters around.

Non-spellcasting medium-sized enemies just makes the Vampire Dire Bear better. Though be prepared for every enemy to have maxed escape artist after about the second session.

[Heliomance]

If this is for the gestalt arena, then there's no spellcasters at all. Also, the insane template stacking that frequently happens in optimised gestalt likely means that a good chunk of the opposition is going to be immune to your draining. This is the grapple monster i built for said arena, I took the slightly different path of just becoming as ungodly strong as i could and crushing them, but you might pick up some useful stuff.

[Flickerdart]

Take the Wild Cohort feat and endear yourself to a Dire Weasel. Now you have a grappling buddy that does the same CON damage you do, so you'll chip away twice as fast.

[HCL]

Totemist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[2xMachina]

Half-Minotaur.

+1LA for Large size and some physical boost.

[herrhauptmann]

Choker monk, with the Souldrinker PrC from BoVD (not the vampire lifedrinker PrC).
Every hit gains the enemy negative levels. Every negative level gives you boosts.
Chokers have reach, and though they're small sized, they get a +4 racial to grappling to offset size, so they're strictly better than a human of equal stats on account of reach alone.

[Flickerdart]

Choker monk, with the Souldrinker PrC from BoVD (not the vampire lifedrinker PrC).
Every hit gains the enemy negative levels. Every negative level gives you boosts.
Chokers have reach, and though they're small sized, they get a +4 racial to grappling to offset size, so they're strictly better than a human of equal stats on account of reach alone.

The Soul Eater, from the way I read it, takes up to two negative levels with a touch attack (made as a standard action because it isn't specified). A vampire already drains 2 levels with its slam attack.
The easiest way to increase negative levels is with a Savage Vampire (Libris Mortis) that has claws instead of a slam attack. Each of a Savage Vampire's claws bestows one negative level, so a simple Totemist dip for Girallon Arms would make that 4 negative levels per full attack.

[Goonthegoof]

I love you guys

[subject42]

Totemist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seconding the totemist. A level 20 Totemist, if properly built, has a grapple check that's on par with the Tarrasque.

[Sinfire Titan]

Totemist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah. Whoever says Druids are the best at grappling have never read the Totemist class. All you need to do to keep competent is find a way to mess with your enemy's size category or your own and you're set for life.

[Talbot]

Since it's gestalt, it might be worth burning three levels in Factotum so you can add your Int to grappling.

[Demons_eye]

In with those that say totemist also this might help

Improved Unarmed Strike -> Improved Grapple -> Scorpion's Grasp

* Pro: Locks down a single enemy, drastically limiting their options. Allows you to deal damage with opposed checks instead of attack rolls. Can deal massive damage if you have your entire build geared toward this.
* Con: Size matters, so big/strong enemies will have an advantage. You lose your Dex bonus against other attackers. Ineffective against more then one enemy at a time.
* Level of Effort: 3 feats + Monk/Fist of the Forest/Psychic Warrior or something similar if you also want to deal high damage.
* Best used against: A single powerful enemy.
* Commentary: This is another high investment/high return combo. But be careful - it works great against one enemy, but is really lousy against multiple enemies.

[Aldizog]

Choker monk, with the Souldrinker PrC from BoVD (not the vampire lifedrinker PrC).
Every hit gains the enemy negative levels. Every negative level gives you boosts.
Chokers have reach, and though they're small sized, they get a +4 racial to grappling to offset size, so they're strictly better than a human of equal stats on account of reach alone.

Chokers also shut down V-only spellcasting in a grapple, so no Dim Door escapes. However, they don't have an LA listed, so I would think most DMs wouldn't allow them as PCs.

[Person_Man]

May I suggest Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 13//Totemist 15

Monk provides an unarmed damage bonus and Evasion, plus good Skills. With the Tashalatora feats, your Psychic Warrior levels will stack with Monk for unarmed Damage progression. Also, Monk unarmed strikes count as natural weapons, which is important for various Totemist combos. Here's a list of ways to improve your unarmed damage.

Psychic Warrior provides bonus feats, Claws of the Beast, Claws of the Vampire, Expansion, Hustle, etc.

Totemist provides you access to a metric ton of natural attacks and ways to boost them. The most important:

• Girillion Arms, which grants you a 2 + (2 * essentia) Competence bonus to all Grapple and Climb checks.
• Heart of Fire, as it adds 1d4 + (1d4* essentia to all natural attacks) - this includes your unarmed damage.
• Mauling Gauntlets: This is a Soulborn soulmeld, so you need to take a feat to get it. But it provides a 2 + (2 * essntia) bonus to all Str checks (includes Grapple, Trip, etc).
• Chaos Roc's Span (Dragon mag 350 pg 87): Binding this to your shoulder chakra provides you with 2 wing buffet attacks. In addition to providing you with 2 extra natural attacks, the wings are reach weapons. This is very important for battlefield control. Also, if you hit an enemy with both wings in one round, they must Save or be Dazed for 1d4 rounds (sadly it's a mind affecting effect, but Daze is still pretty potent). So be sure to always use them for AoO.
• Dragon Tail (Dragon Magic and online): Bound to your waist it provides you with a tail attack with reach. Only use this if your DM doesn't allow Chaos Roc's Span (presumably because it's magazine material).

[sonofzeal]

May I suggest Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 13//Totemist 15

Monk provides an unarmed damage bonus and Evasion, plus good Skills. With the Tashalatora feats, your Psychic Warrior levels will stack with Monk for unarmed Damage progression. Also, Monk unarmed strikes count as natural weapons, which is important for various Totemist combos. Here's a list of ways to improve your unarmed damage.

Psychic Warrior provides bonus feats, Claws of the Beast, Claws of the Vampire, Expansion, Hustle, etc.

Totemist provides you access to a metric ton of natural attacks and ways to boost them. The most important:

• Girillion Arms, which grants you a 2 + (2 * essentia) Competence bonus to all Grapple and Climb checks.
• Heart of Fire, as it adds 1d4 + (1d4* essentia to all natural attacks) - this includes your unarmed damage.
• Mauling Gauntlets: This is a Soulborn soulmeld, so you need to take a feat to get it. But it provides a 2 + (2 * essntia) bonus to all Str checks (includes Grapple, Trip, etc).
• Chaos Roc's Span (Dragon mag 350 pg 87): Binding this to your shoulder chakra provides you with 2 wing buffet attacks. In addition to providing you with 2 extra natural attacks, the wings are reach weapons. This is very important for battlefield control. Also, if you hit an enemy with both wings in one round, they must Save or be Dazed for 1d4 rounds (sadly it's a mind affecting effect, but Daze is still pretty potent). So be sure to always use them for AoO.
• Dragon Tail (Dragon Magic and online): Bound to your waist it provides you with a tail attack with reach. Only use this if your DM doesn't allow Chaos Roc's Span (presumably because it's magazine material).

I think it's a fair call between Monk2/Psychic Warrior13//Totemist15, and Monk1/Druid14//Totemist15. I'd lean in favour of the latter, as PsiWar can have endurance issues in my experience, though I haven't tried one past level 10 yet. Either way can be nasty, but I think the Druid wins on sheer flexibility. Whatever you're doing, there's probably a Druid spell that can at least help.

And both can profit from Vow of Poverty, since Monk limits your gear options and Totemist limits them even farther if you bind anything to anything besides Totem Chakra, which should be a given at this level.

[Xenogears]

If you don't mind being evil you can spend 20k on a grappling arm graft (or two). they give a +4 untyped bonus to STR when using them and another +4 bonus to grapple checks using them. So thats a +8 bonus per arm for 20k per arm. You could also be good if you can become immune to ability damage or can heal 1d3 points of wis damage per day.

[sonofzeal]

If you don't mind being evil you can spend 20k on a grappling arm graft (or two). they give a +4 untyped bonus to STR when using them and another +4 bonus to grapple checks using them. So thats a +8 bonus per arm for 20k per arm. You could also be good if you can become immune to ability damage or can heal 1d3 points of wis damage per day.

Er, a +4 bonus to STR gives a +2 bonus to Grapple, for a +6 total. Still good though.


You also don't have to be evil for a few of the more useful Maug grafts, and there's a couple that are especially good for grapplers.

[herrhauptmann]

The Soul Eater, from the way I read it, takes up to two negative levels with a touch attack (made as a standard action because it isn't specified). A vampire already drains 2 levels with its slam attack.
The easiest way to increase negative levels is with a Savage Vampire (Libris Mortis) that has claws instead of a slam attack. Each of a Savage Vampire's claws bestows one negative level, so a simple Totemist dip for Girallon Arms would make that 4 negative levels per full attack.

I advocate the choker monk over a regular vampire, because (from what my DMs have told me) a vampire can't use his slam attack for flurry, stunning fist, etc. So he's limited to how many attacks he can make a round that drain a level.
A choker monk with that prestige class meanwhile, can activate a flurry of blows, and get that level drain for each hit. So assuming I'm remembering that correctly, the choker would get more level draining attempts than a vampire.

[Xenogears]

Er, a +4 bonus to STR gives a +2 bonus to Grapple, for a +6 total. Still good though.


You also don't have to be evil for a few of the more useful Maug grafts, and there's a couple that are especially good for grapplers.

yes yes that is right. bad math on my part...

Yeah the Maug Locking Hand Graft gives a +5 bonus but only for stopping them from escaping (atleast insofar as grappling is concerned its the only time it works) for only 2k. I wonder if they could stack...

Could you replace your arem with a grappling tentacle and then put a stone hand at the end of it for a +11 to grapple for 22k?

I advocate the choker monk over a regular vampire, because (from what my DMs have told me) a vampire can't use his slam attack for flurry, stunning fist, etc. So he's limited to how many attacks he can make a round that drain a level.
A choker monk with that prestige class meanwhile, can activate a flurry of blows, and get that level drain for each hit. So assuming I'm remembering that correctly, the choker would get more level draining attempts than a vampire.

Actually a Vampire can only use his energy drain ability 1/round no matter how many attacks they have so its even worse than you thought.
Edit:

[herrhauptmann]

Actually a Vampire can only use his energy drain ability 1/round no matter how many attacks they have so its even worse than you thought.

Really? Ouch. So yeah, definitely choker with the PrC over a regular vampire. I'll go look at the vampire variants later tonight, though depending on LA, that feral one mentioned might be superior to the choker.

[Goonthegoof]

yes yes that is right. bad math on my part...

Yeah the Maug Locking Hand Graft gives a +5 bonus but only for stopping them from escaping (atleast insofar as grappling is concerned its the only time it works) for only 2k. I wonder if they could stack...

Could you replace your arem with a grappling tentacle and then put a stone hand at the end of it for a +11 to grapple for 22k?


Actually a Vampire can only use his energy drain ability 1/round no matter how many attacks they have so its even worse than you thought.
Edit:

Where would I find this stuff? Libris Mortis doesn't seem to mention those grafts.

[sonofzeal]

yes yes that is right. bad math on my part...

Yeah the Maug Locking Hand Graft gives a +5 bonus but only for stopping them from escaping (atleast insofar as grappling is concerned its the only time it works) for only 2k. I wonder if they could stack...

Could you replace your arem with a grappling tentacle and then put a stone hand at the end of it for a +11 to grapple for 22k?

Mmmm.... yeah, should be kosher. There's no special penalty applied to the creature that tentacles negate, and the mental image is kind of awesome. And the text allows multiple locking hands to stack with themselves, so that's cool too. However, there's one problematic word: "it replaces the creature's normal hand". You could argue the tentacle constitutes a "hand" of sorts, but it's certainly not your "normal" hand. I'd allow it though.



EDIT - for those curious, this is from Fiend Folio.

[Goonthegoof]

I just found them, is it possible to get them without paying an xp cost?

[sonofzeal]

I just found them, is it possible to get them without paying an xp cost?

Er.... pay the market price listed?