[3.5] Chaining a Cantrip

[Burley]

I have an idea of casting Chained Launch Bolt to fire multiple crossbow bolts which just happen to also be Spell-Storing bolts, with Scorching Ray.
I imagine setting up my campsite with conveniently placed hordes of bolts to turn enemies into smoldering pin-cushions.
So, question one: Is it possible put metamagics on 0-level spells? I think so, but gotta ask first.
Question two: How would, if at all, Chain Spell react to Launch Bolt? The feat only references spells that target creatures and such things. But, Launch Bolt is, indeed, a targeted spell, the target being a bolt within medium-range.
Question three: If I were multiclassing Sorceror-or-Wizard and Rogue, is there anyway I could slap Sneak Attack Damage onto all these beautiful attacks? I believe if I launched them all from my square and the opponent was unaware of my presence, I could, but... if the opponent was unaware the bolts' presence in the bushes, would they be flat-footed to the non-existant archer firing upon them?

[arguskos]

1. Yes, you can meta cantrips.
2. I believe it would chain to a lot of nearby valid targets.
3. Uh... ask your DM this one.

[Sinfire Titan]

3: If it requires an attack roll, you can Sneak Attack with Launch Bolt.



Want a little tip? You can fire Crossbow Bolts larger than your own body. grab a Gargantuan Bolt or three, and watch the DM cringe as you fling tress with a Cantrip.

[Protecar]

This actually sounds like a fun idea. How does this "chaining" thing work though? I tried looking up the proper metamagic but no luck.

[Burley]

Want a little tip? You can fire Crossbow Bolts larger than your own body. grab a Gargantuan Bolt or three, and watch the DM cringe as you fling tress with a Cantrip.

I remember a lot of threads suggesting this, but, in my mind's heart, I know that there comes a size when a "bolt" ceases to be a "bolt".

Besides, increasing the size of a single die is not worth the cost of constructing tree-size masterwork +1 Spell-Storing bolts, and hiring the caravans to lug them around.

This actually sounds like a fun idea. How does this "chaining" thing work though? I tried looking up the proper metamagic but no luck.

Chaining is in Complete Arcane. It lets you have your targeted spells effect secondary and tertiary targets, but you cast it from a spell slot three levels higher.

I'm considering taking Arcane Thesis on Launch Bolt. I know... silly idea, but I think I'd be able to chain more for less spell slots.

[Deth Muncher]

3: If it requires an attack roll, you can Sneak Attack with Launch Bolt.



Want a little tip? You can fire Crossbow Bolts larger than your own body. grab a Gargantuan Bolt or three, and watch the DM cringe as you fling tress with a Cantrip.

On this note, as it was just recently mentioned, if you have a Spell Component Pouch, you can grab up to...Huge, I think? Just randomly from it. Since they're the biggest ones that cost less than 1GP.

I remember a lot of threads suggesting this, but, in my mind's heart, I know that there comes a size when a "bolt" ceases to be a "bolt".

Besides, increasing the size of a single die is not worth the cost of constructing tree-size masterwork +1 Spell-Storing bolts, and hiring the caravans to lug them around.

Bag of Holding Mk. IV, anyone?

[Cyclocone]

I remember a lot of threads suggesting this, but, in my mind's heart, I know that there comes a size when a "bolt" ceases to be a "bolt".

Colossal creatures beg to differ.

Besides, increasing the size of a single die is not worth the cost of constructing tree-size masterwork +1 Spell-Storing bolts, and hiring the caravans to lug them around.

Shrink Item.

This actually sounds like a fun idea. How does this "chaining" thing work though? I tried looking up the proper metamagic but no luck.

Chain Spell.

[Tanaric]

Want a little tip? You can fire Crossbow Bolts larger than your own body...

Nnnnope. The spell calls for a 1sp crossbow bolt, actually. Colossal+++ bolts aren't 1sp.

[Sinfire Titan]

Nnnnope. The spell calls for a 1sp crossbow bolt, actually. Colossal+++ bolts aren't 1sp.

Does it specifically say "worth 1sp" in the spell? If not, then there's no problem.

[RagnaroksChosen]

I don't think this works

The reason is chain spell says the spell arcs

Any spell that specifies a single target and has a range greater than touch can be chained so as to affect that primary target normally, then arc to a number of secondary targets equal to your caster level (maximum 20).

So that would sound to me like the bolt it self would arc to other targets which would be impossible seeing as bolts are destroyed on impact.

How ever you could,
Quicken Twin spell
twin spell, repeat spell it.

to get off 4 arrows this round then do it again next round for an aditional 8 arrows..

Could be a fun strategy... Especialy with metamagic reducers. mabye even smite spell.

[Deth Muncher]

Does it specifically say "worth 1sp" in the spell? If not, then there's no problem.

Unfortunately.

[DementedFellow]

I still don't see a problem. Just buy a colossal bolt for 1 sp. Use whatever method works best for you.

[Burley]

So that would sound to me like the bolt it self would arc to other targets which would be impossible seeing as bolts are destroyed on impact.

The target of the spell is the actual bolt, not the target of the bolt. The spell arcs from bolt to bolt, firing them off.
In the vein of thought you're using, a Chained Orb of Acid would hit the orc, and then send that orc bouncing into his buddies, instead of sending the Orb bouncing into his buddies.
The spell affects new targets. It does not make the target affect multiple targets.

Unfortunately.

Well, then why would the spell description say that the magical properties of the bolt still apply, when it would be im-freakin-possible to have a magical bolt cost 1sp.

[RagnaroksChosen]

The target of the spell is the actual bolt, not the target of the bolt. The spell arcs from bolt to bolt, firing them off.
In the vein of thought you're using, a Chained Orb of Acid would hit the orc, and then send that orc bouncing into his buddies, instead of sending the Orb bouncing into his buddies.
The spell affects new targets. It does not make the target affect multiple targets.

After re reading it i get what your saying... which adds to the awsome sauce any way.

quickened Twinned chained
and twinded chained repeating....

[DementedFellow]

The target of the spell is the actual bolt, not the target of the bolt. The spell arcs from bolt to bolt, firing them off.
In the vein of thought you're using, a Chained Orb of Acid would hit the orc, and then send that orc bouncing into his buddies, instead of sending the Orb bouncing into his buddies.

That's a better interpretation of the rules actually. I like the idea of the orc pinballing into his buddies.

[Draz74]

Spell Storing is listed only on the table of Melee weapon properties, not on the Ranged weapon properties. Therefore, many DMs rule that it's a melee-only thing. (And I support this, because I've seen some nasty-overpowered exploits with Spell Storing Arrows before. Forget Launch Bolt, just a simple Cleric archer ... yikes.)

What's more, Scorching Ray isn't technically a valid spell to put in Spell Storing weapons, as it's not a Targeted spell (it requires an attack roll of its own).

[Burley]

That's a better interpretation of the rules actually. I like the idea of the orc pinballing into his buddies.

It isn't necessarily a better interpretation, as it is a more humorous interpretation.

So, as I stand now, everything about this idea checks out, except that it it impossible to cast Launch Bolt on a magical bolt.

Edit: ...And, the fact that Scorching Ray isn't techinically a targeted spell. Well, isn't that bloody convenient.

[DementedFellow]

You guys are missing it. Even though I can't find my Spell Compendium right now I don't think that 1sp limitation is there. But there are ways around that.

Hire a lumberjack for a day and then offer him a tip if he'll fashion 10 trees into colossal bolts. 10 sp for 10 bolts. He'll already be working for you for the day, however many gp that is. Viola! You have colossal bolts that are 1 sp.

Or you can Intimidate a vendor into lowering his price to 1 sp.

Or you can Fascinate a vendor into lowering his price to 1 sp.

Or you can Suggest a vendor lower his price.

Or you can Mindrape a vendor into lowering his price.

Or you can just simply knock out the vendor, walk out of the door with X number of colossal bolts and leave the same number of sp behind.

[Sinfire Titan]

It isn't necessarily a better interpretation, as it is a more humorous interpretation.

So, as I stand now, everything about this idea checks out, except that it it impossible to cast Launch Bolt on a magical bolt.

Which makes no sense because the spell says otherwise. I think that (1sp) is just a reminder, compare it to True Rez' wording (or any other spell). It doesn't say "worth 1sp" it says "a Crossbow Bolt (1sp)". It may do so because the PHB lists Crossbow Bolts as costing 1gp for 10.

[FishAreWet]

You would have to Reach it then Chain it.

Any spell that specifies a single target and has a range greater than touch can be chained so as to affect that primary target normally, then arc to a number of secondary targets equal to your caster level (maximum 20).

So in the end, you use a 5th level spell slot to shoot 20 bolts. Without shenanigans, this is 20d6.

[Redrat2k6]

I love the idea, I actually got really excited about all the cool things my npc rogues were gunna do with scrolls of launch bolt and huge sized crossbow bolts.

As for facts.

Unfortunately, it does not work. Chain metamagic only works on spells with a range greater than touch and Launch Bolt has a range of touch.

But I could see a familiar that is hiding in the bushes cast this one off for you if diplomacy goes awry. Maybe some level 1 rogue followers with scrolls behind a silent image spell could make this really nice.

As for opinion.

As for the crossbow bolt size I'm pretty sure the (1sp) is there to indicate the cost for a normal size crossbow bolt for easy reference. If the spell were to say "a crossbow bolt worth 1sp" or "no more than 1 sp" like some spells do, then I would agree.

Being a DM though I would house rule this to the size of the wielder. And I think my current players would understand. It's not like DnD doesn't have worse mistakes it has made. Like Druids.

[Twilight Jack]

You would have to Reach it then Chain it.



So in the end, you use a 5th level spell slot to shoot 20 bolts. Without shenanigans, this is 20d6.

20d8 if you're medium sized, sir.

[Burley]

You would have to Reach it then Chain it.



So in the end, you use a 5th level spell slot to shoot 20 bolts. Without shenanigans, this is 20d6.

Launch Bolt is not a touch spell. It has a range of Medium.

Edit: The spell originally appears in Magic of Faerun, where it has a range of Medium. I have no idea if that changes when if was moved to the Spell Compendium.

[Sinfire Titan]

Launch Bolt is not a touch spell. It has a range of Medium.

Edit: The spell originally appears in Magic of Faerun, where it has a range of Medium. I have no idea if that changes when if was moved to the Spell Compendium.

A remote-controlled ambush! Just apply Silent/Still.

[Another_Poet]

This is awesome.

[cZak]

Hire a lumberjack for a day and then offer him a tip if he'll fashion 10 trees into colossal bolts. 10 sp for 10 bolts. He'll already be working for you for the day, however many gp that is. Viola! You have colossal bolts that are 1 sp... etc

Obvious breakage of rules of any sort...

Wiz needs a 100gp pearl to cast identify...

Fighter has a pearl but it appraises at only 80gp

"I'll pay you 100gp for that pearl..."

These methods are joked about 'round the table, but I've never met a DM who would allow their interpretation

[Vizzerdrix]

Launch Bolt is not a touch spell. It has a range of Medium.

Edit: The spell originally appears in Magic of Faerun, where it has a range of Medium. I have no idea if that changes when if was moved to the Spell Compendium.

Spell Comp gives it a range of touch. So reach+Chain is needed, but this is a cool Idea. Anyone have a quick and dirty list of MM reducers?

Tis found on page 130.

[arguskos]

Let's see... Incantrix 10 reduces metas, but that's Incantrix, so . Easy Metamagic drops the cost of one, as does Practical Metamagic, though only for sorcs. So, perhaps a Dragonblooded Human Sorcerer 6? That gets you Chain, Repeat, and Easy/Practical for one feat. Still, that's a +4 adjustment, which you can't do until level 8.

If you hit up a Metamagic Storm to nick either Chain or Repeat, you could squeeze in another Easy Metamagic, and so get that down to a +3 total adjustment, but that's being kinda nice with the location.

[Vizzerdrix]

Metaphysical Spellshaper -3 can take another 1 off the metamagic cost too, but then it can never go below a +1 MM cost (but then again you can take stat damage to pay for adding the metamagic, so...)

[Evard]

Off a movie called gamers (no major motion picture or anything) a rogue sneak attacks with a ballista which uses bolts sooo... :D