common DM mistake, no magic mart TM

[taltamir]

A common thing I see (especially on the forums) are DMs who say "there is no magic mart", you can't just leaf through the books and buy whatever your heart desires (combined often with very low wealth campaigns).

Common reasons include realism (in DnD?), and nerfing the wizard oddly enough (the thought is, he cannot just find any scroll he wishes; it is wrong).
The actual end result of this is hurting the beatsticks, who were balanced with WBL and unlimited access to magic marts where they can buy a diverse and effective loadout of magic items. A wizard's (or any caster) class abilities can replicate any magic item of choice for a set duration (and even do things magic items cannot).

Another issue is control over the party power, the DM then hands out rewards s/he chooses, adjusting the party's power via items to match what he thinks is appropriate for the adventure. This sort of approach is heavy handed and usually results in uneven distribution of rewards and resulting resentment (why did I only get X while he got X, Y, Z, G and H!). Especially if the DM is using unequal rewards to balance out classes of vastly differing power.

All that being said, it makes sense to not have magic marts for various reasons, especially making a realistic non tippyverse world. But for it work mechanically would require drastic alterations to the rules and class balance; which often do not accompany such a change, or are also done incorrectly.

[FishAreWet]

I agree with this completely.

Magic marts help everyone, but not equally.

And from a 'common sense' standpoint, it all depends. No, there is not a magic mart in the 150 population town that gets raided by Goblins. But in a planar metropolis? yeah, there is.

[Indon]

If I'm not mistaken, random loot (as opposed to loot on demand or a complete lootless game) favors non-casters simply because the majority of magic items are not caster-oriented, and casters don't generally benefit from items that duplicate spells anyway.

[Kylarra]

...who were balanced with WBL and unlimited access to magic marts...

I laughed, as I often do when people cite inherent balance in 3.X.

In my campaigns, barring trips to Sigil and similar major magic-o-tropolises, you probably won't be able to buy whatever you want. Availability will be roughly based on what sort of city you're in. You can however make trips to said sigil-clones to have a wider selection of goods, or hire a wizard (or similar full caster) to custom craft one for you.

[FishAreWet]

If I'm not mistaken, random loot (as opposed to loot on demand or a complete lootless game) favors non-casters simply because the majority of magic items are not caster-oriented, and casters don't generally benefit from items that duplicate spells anyway.

Almost every book has magic items in it. Random loot tables only pull from DMG.

[valadil]

I generally limit the upper bounds on what can be purchased in a given town. ie, it will have all magic items up to 4000gp and all scrolls up to second level. Unless I'm limiting things for some specific reason going any finer grained than that is more tedious than it's worth.

[Satyr]

The question is not realism, but dramaturgy. The supernatural is supposed to be not a natural occurance. That's why it is supernatural. If the magic stuff becomes too common it becomes boring, and that is something of the worst things you can possibly do to a fantasy setting - making it dull. That is the same reason why I think it is mandatory to make wizards and other spellcasters rare and nerf them hard enough that the lack of magical items not a concern anymore.

[Deepblue706]

I think it particularly helps Fighters more than most other classes, if not the most. Their feats are generally hard to acquire through money, but just about everything everyone else has can be bought to some degree.

But, I still mostly give out most loot at random, in dungeons. Partly because I love rolling dice on random tables, and partly because I like putting the players into an uncomfortable position; in this case using items they may not be familiar with. I find it keeps things fresh.

Still, I have opportunities to buy just about anything, exchanging whatever silly loot comes their way. It's just you generally have to go to The Big City, which itself at some levels has its own costs in opportunity, effort and time. After that point it just becomes a matter of traveling to where the Bigger Magic Mart is.

[Indon]

Almost every book has magic items in it. Random loot tables only pull from DMG.

That's not necessarily a bad thing.

Would you want a dagger of Incarnum stabbing +2 as random loot for your party? Probably not.

[jokey665]

No, there is not a magic mart in the 150 population town that gets raided by Goblins. But in a planar metropolis? yeah, there is.

This. In a small town I might say they have one minor magic item and roll to see what it is, but when my players head to Sigil or Union or something I basically let them get whatever they can afford.

[Glimbur]

If I'm not mistaken, random loot (as opposed to loot on demand or a complete lootless game) favors non-casters simply because the majority of magic items are not caster-oriented, and casters don't generally benefit from items that duplicate spells anyway.

Casters can make their own magic items, and don't have to depend on Boots of Flying or Wings of Flying or what have you to fly.

[Yuki Akuma]

The question is not realism, but dramaturgy. The supernatural is supposed to be not a natural occurance. That's why it is supernatural. If the magic stuff becomes too common it becomes boring, and that is something of the worst things you can possibly do to a fantasy setting - making it dull. That is the same reason why I think it is mandatory to make wizards and other spellcasters rare and nerf them hard enough that the lack of magical items not a concern anymore.

But in the default D&D campaign settings (at least for 3.5), magic is common. There are entire PC races with spell-like abilities!

[Sinfire Titan]

If I'm not mistaken, random loot (as opposed to loot on demand or a complete lootless game) favors non-casters simply because the majority of magic items are not caster-oriented, and casters don't generally benefit from items that duplicate spells anyway.

The person who benefits the most from random treasure is, in fact, the Artificer. He's able to turn that garbage into useful items the party needs most, whereas the Fighter can just toss that Balor's +1 Vorpal Greatsword into the trash (along with every other magic armor/weapon not specifically designed for his abilities and feats).


Full casters? Don't care about random treasure save for wands, scrolls, and the occasional ring/rod. Potions are ignored outright, and most "Wondrous" items aren't actually all that impressive. Armor and Weapons mean almost nothing to the Full Casters.

There's a reason an Artificer is capable of recovering from being hit by a Disjunction spell almost as easily as the casters do.

[Indon]

Casters can make their own magic items, and don't have to depend on Boots of Flying or Wings of Flying or what have you to fly.

I imagine a campaign which nerfs on-demand magic items for purchase is likely to nerf on-demand magic item factories as well.

[Person_Man]

My groups used to role play shopping for magic items. You had to find a large enough community (which is quite hard to do in some game worlds), locate the appropriate store (again, hard to do if the setting fears/hates/distrusts magic), occassionally go on side quests (to gain entrance to a specific guild that controls access to said store), see if he had the item in stock and/or wait and/or travel to another store if he doesn't, and then barter for the price you want or go on another side quest to get it.

In my personal experience, this is a good thing to do for low level and/or beginner groups, because it gives them low danger quests and acquaints them with the game world. But for veterans, it's basically just a massive hassle. Now in all of my games, every large city has a magic Walmart, towns have magic boutique stores, and small villages have at least one magic traveling salesman.

[Sleepingbear]

I don't think I have magic marts as such in any of my games.

That isn't to say that magic isn't for sale.

A lowly village may have a cleric who may be able to brew some curing potions or else recieves shipments of same from the big church in the city.

If the village has a wizard, odds are he's willing to scribe some low level scrolls for a price.

When you get into the big cities, the churches are going to have someone within their organization who can brew potions. Another to craft wands. Another to craft staffs and so on. They may likely be willing to do so for a sizable donation from those of the same faith or have done the church some favor.

Wizards are going to be more willing to scribe scrolls (usually two or three levels below the highest level they can cast, keeping the best for themselves). There will be some wizards who have set up shop to sell their services (dispel magic, scry, remove curse, break enchantment, identify and so on). Some wizards will have collected some odds and ends from their adventures they no long want. Same goes for other adventuring groups. And of course there is the option to have something commissioned once a crafting mage is found.

Nobles are another source of magic items. Many nobles are either former adventurers or descended from adventurers. Many also deal with adventurers on a frequent basis.

Basically players have two choices. They can shop around and see what is available. When they find it, they can then haggle over the price which may be in gold, other magic items or favors. Or they can find someone capable of crafting what they want. When they find them, they can then haggle over the price which may be in gold, other magic items or favors.

Really, it's about the game world and acquisition of magic items making sense. Beyond that, I have nothing against the commerce of magic items. I don't even have a serious objection to a lot of it being assumed behind the scenes between adventures for the sake of speed and convienence.

[Longcat]

The question is not realism, but dramaturgy. The supernatural is supposed to be not a natural occurance. That's why it is supernatural. If the magic stuff becomes too common it becomes boring, and that is something of the worst things you can possibly do to a fantasy setting - making it dull. That is the same reason why I think it is mandatory to make wizards and other spellcasters rare and nerf them hard enough that the lack of magical items not a concern anymore.

Are you referring to normal D&D, or some low-magic setting? Magic in standard D&D is supposed to be common, and the default party assumed by the creator consists of 50% spellcasters.

[FishAreWet]

The question is not realism, but dramaturgy. The supernatural is supposed to be not a natural occurance. That's why it is supernatural. If the magic stuff becomes too common it becomes boring, and that is something of the worst things you can possibly do to a fantasy setting - making it dull. That is the same reason why I think it is mandatory to make wizards and other spellcasters rare and nerf them hard enough that the lack of magical items not a concern anymore.

Well that's the setting you play it. Certainly not Fae'run or Eberron...

Hell, every single gnome can cast magic innately! That's from PHB!

[Gnaeus]

If I'm not mistaken, random loot (as opposed to loot on demand or a complete lootless game) favors non-casters

You are mistaken.

simply because the majority of magic items are not caster-oriented,

There are several big magic item charts (Scrolls, Wands, Staves) that are only of value for casters.

Many casters are just as happy to have a non caster item as the non-caster is. A cleric is delighted to get an armor roll. Anyone will enjoy a ring of protection or resistance. There are very few items that are actually non-caster only, like exotic weapons, and your spiked chain tripper isn't going to be jumping for joy at the sight of a +1 urgrosh. Your charger might pick up the magical bow, but it isn't what he was dreaming of.

and casters don't generally benefit from items that duplicate spells anyway.

Huh? Casters love items that duplicate spells. That lets them memorize other, different spells. Can your rogue swap out his evasion if he finds a ring of it? Can the barbarian drop his DR if he finds some Adamantine armor?

And the biggest reason. Any item a caster feels he needs, he can spend a feat and MAKE. If a fighter needs a certain item, and he can't buy it or find it randomly, he is just stuck, unless he can find a caster willing to make it for him.

I imagine a campaign which nerfs on-demand magic items for purchase is likely to nerf on-demand magic item factories as well.

Your imagination is limited. I have never been in a campaign where the DM said, "You can't take Craft Wondrous Items", and I have been in plenty where there were no magic marts.

Anyway, half of Glimbur's point was that the caster can fly without a magic item.

[Satyr]

Are you referring to normal D&D, or some low-magic setting? Magic in standard D&D is supposed to be common, and the default party assumed by the creator consists of 50% spellcasters.

I am refering to fantasy in general, including D&D. And there is a vast difference between the player party and the world as a whole - PCs are ipso facto exceptional. I have no problem with spellcasters as PCs in principle. I have a problem with spotlight stealing, but that is another issue altogether (but one that is usually linked specifically to spellcasters in D&D).

[Tinydwarfman]

Actually when we play, I think you can get any equipment, but wands and scrolls are rolled for randomly. That being said, our GM gives us much more powerful things when we are out adventuring, or for plot/story reasons.
(e.g. we found an amazing deal on +4 bracers of armor, but we were really low level, so it would expend like all of our resources)

[Indon]

There are several big magic item charts (Scrolls, Wands, Staves) that are only of value for casters.

I had the impression they didn't come up as often as other categories of magic item.

Huh? Casters love items that duplicate spells. That lets them memorize other, different spells. Can your rogue swap out his evasion if he finds a ring of it? Can the barbarian drop his DR if he finds some Adamantine armor?

Arcane casters outside of magic mart games are going to have a lot fewer spells to choose from. Though, indeed, the Cleric and the Druid don't suffer nearly as much from this - and also, they have fewer utility spells and those utility spells they have are less frequently duplicated by magic items anyway.

Edit:

Your imagination is limited. I have never been in a campaign where the DM said, "You can't take Craft Wondrous Items", and I have been in plenty where there were no magic marts.

You need to do both to get rid of the magic mart.

Anyway, half of Glimbur's point was that the caster can fly without a magic item.

Insofar as the CR system does function, I'm pretty sure it's not reliant on everyone having flight.

[Superglucose]

But for it work mechanically would require drastic alterations to the rules and class balance; which often do not accompany such a change, or are also done incorrectly.

Correct.

The main, humungous, ginormous, insane mistake I see practically every GM who freaks out about magic items make is this:

They do not give wealth by level.

Encounter levels and CRs are BASED on a 5th level party with 5th level loot. A CR 5 encounter will be difficult for a 5th level party with 2nd level loot. GMs need to understand this, but for whatever reason they don't and it drives me bonkers.

[taltamir]

Arcane casters outside of magic mart games are going to have a lot fewer spells to choose from. Though, indeed, the Cleric and the Druid don't suffer nearly as much from this - and also, they have fewer utility spells and those utility spells they have are less frequently duplicated by magic items anyway.

1. Collegiate wizard
2. Elven generalist
3. a scroll is cheap and small and easier to justify than an expensive rare magic item.
4. track down another wizard, offer to trade spells.
5. Even if all the above is nerfed, 2 spells known per level still go quite a long way in versatility.

I am refering to fantasy in general, including D&D. And there is a vast difference between the player party and the world as a whole - PCs are ipso facto exceptional. I have no problem with spellcasters as PCs in principle. I have a problem with spotlight stealing, but that is another issue altogether (but one that is usually linked specifically to spellcasters in D&D).

the irony is, that spotlight "hogging" is greatly exacerbated by the mistakes I have posted about in my original post of this thread.

Encounter levels and CRs are BASED on a 5th level party with 5th level loot. A CR 5 encounter will be difficult for a 5th level party with 2nd level loot. GMs need to understand this, but for whatever reason they don't and it drives me bonkers.

Accurate, and it works both ways too... a 5th party with a scroll of gate can do quite a lot more than a 5th level party should.

[Tavar]

Actually, the chance to get Caster only magic items is greater than the chance to get "Melee only"(weapons and armor) items, and that's not even going into the fact that pretty much any caster can use any scrolls, wand, staff, or rod, while armor or weapons are highly dependent on individual builds. Really, Random WBL is just an excuse to screw over melee.

[JaronK]

Plus, "melee only" loot works on pets like undead. My Dread Necromancer often takes the trash random loot that we get and puts it on Awakened Zombies and the like.

JaronK

[taltamir]

Plus, "melee only" loot works on pets like undead. My Dread Necromancer often takes the trash random loot that we get and puts it on Awakened Zombies and the like.

JaronK

astute observation, I had not considered that. Give that belt of strength to the druids companion.

Actually, the chance to get Caster only magic items is greater than the chance to get "Melee only"(weapons and armor) items, and that's not even going into the fact that pretty much any caster can use any scrolls, wand, staff, or rod, while armor or weapons are highly dependent on individual builds. Really, Random WBL is just an excuse to screw over melee.

A very common build for melee is a fighter with weapon specialization line...
so you have invested 5+ feats that work with one and ONLY ONE type of weapon... what is the chance of the chart giving you one that is better than the one you have? the charts don't even HAVE weapons made out of exotic materials with SMART enchantment choices.
Melee *have* to sell all the junk they loot to buy a custom weapon for the build, from a custom exotic material (adamantium, mithral, etc), with a custom set of good enchantments.

oh yea, and +1/2/3/4/5 bonuses on weapons suck, worst enchantment you can get. You want good enchantments and then have your cleric or wizard cast "greater magic weapon" on your weapon in the morning (to give it a level appropriate + bonus)

[Satyr]

the irony is, that spotlight "hogging" is greatly exacerbated by the mistakes I have posted about in my original post of this thread.

#

That's why the general power level of spellcasters should be related to the availibility of cool stuff for mundane people; Yes, when spellcasters are very powerful and common (again, that is not the best idea, because it usually achieves the opposite of what it intends to do, namely making the game more interesting through magic), then you practically need loads of magical items as a patch to close the gap. If you reduce the number of available items, you should also reduce the power of spellcasters. I fuly agree that taking away the cool toys for fighters and leaving the wizards untouched is generally a bad idea.

[taltamir]

That's why the general power level of spellcasters should be related to the availibility of cool stuff for mundane people; Yes, when spellcasters are very powerful and common (again, that is not the best idea, because it usually achieves the opposite of what it intends to do, namely making the game more interesting through magic), then you practically need loads of magical items as a patch to close the gap. If you reduce the number of available items, you should also reduce the power of spellcasters. I fuly agree that taking away the cool toys for fighters and leaving the wizards untouched is generally a bad idea.

but with such drastic changes, are you even still playing DnD?

[Choco]

but with such drastic changes, are you even still playing DnD?

4e

4e cleaned this up nicely. The classes are balanced without any magic items. The books even said there are no magic marts for anything but the most common low level items (and the City of Brass).

Everything else you gotta quest for or create yourself, which aint a big deal because creating magic items costs just as much as buying them on the market.