{All Editions} Drow and Drow Hate

[AirGuitarGod32]

Well. This thread is all about everybody's favorite dark-skinned elf subtype.

I have some serious adoration for this race, but I have some questions, more fluff-based than crunch based, though there's a few...

1. This one is focused on Drider. Number one, why in god's green earth are THEY the exiles? Sure, they bombed the test. But aren't they worth 5 drow? and why do they, as a monster class, get the short stick? I mean a poison? a lot of useless SLAs? and are 4 levels under a human wizard? what's the point??????

2. I get that drow use adamantine as their weapons, armor, and other stuff, and that it melts in sunlight. However, I've had DMs use this as a screw to get the economy. However, is this a viable means to remove powerful items from play?

3. This is more focused on szarkai. Szarkai are basically drow that don't look like drow. However, how can a PC tell a szarkai npc vs an elf pc

4. This is based on Darkness as the Drow's SLA. This is a cool ability, however, a DM can quickly kill a game using several drow who cast it all at the same time, and give them all rogue levels and hypathetically cause a TPK at low levels. What can PCs do to stop this?

[tyckspoon]

3. Good Sense Motive/Spot check against the Szarkai's Bluff/Disguise check to look and act like a normal elf.

4. Darkness does this:

This spell causes an object to radiate shadowy illumination out to a 20-foot radius. All creatures in the area gain concealment (20% miss chance). Even creatures that can normally see in such conditions (such as with darkvision or low-light vision) have the miss chance in an area shrouded in magical darkness.

You can't Sneak Attack things with concealment. It's self-defeating for the Drow. They're generally better off trying to destroy any light sources the party has and then attacking in real darkness, instead of lighting up the area with the Darkness spell (one of the more blatant name-effect mismatches in D&D- Darkness will dim brightly-lit areas, but it actually lights up places that are already properly dark.)

[Fenix_of_Doom]

2. I get that drow use adamantine as their weapons, armor, and other stuff, and that it melts in sunlight. However, I've had DMs use this as a screw to get the economy. However, is this a viable means to remove powerful items from play?

I've never heard of material that melts in the sun, but generally, if you don't want your party to have powerful items, then don't give it to them. Don't mess with them like this.

4. This is based on Darkness as the Drow's SLA. This is a cool ability, however, a DM can quickly kill a game using several drow who cast it all at the same time, and give them all rogue levels and hypathetically cause a TPK at low levels. What can PCs do to stop this?

Drow have a higher CR because of their abilities(+1 if I'm not mistaken), so a single drow rogue is CR 2, with their Con penalty and not all that useful other abilities, I'd sooner worry about them being too weak as an enemy.

P.S. darkness grants concealment and thus prevents sneak attacking.

[Zaydos]

1. LA is always borked. Also a drider gets ability bonuses, and better hit dice chassis but yeah probably not worth 4 levels.

2. This rule was taken out in 3.X I thought.

3. No idea never heard of them.

4. Yeah darkness doesn't work that way in 3.5 and in 3.X drow are just as blind in magic darkness as humans; not sure about 2e and earlier.

[Dusk Eclipse]

1st: I have to admit I am as confused as you concernig driders, I mean even Lolth herself adopt a drider-esque form, yet she gives them a form similar to her to punish them, that doesn't makes sense (unless she hates her form but IIRC she as a greater goddes can change shaper at will)

2nd: I have never been in this situation before, actually I have never met a drow in game as a NPC, actually my gaming group has never been to the underdark so no help there. Except that I think it is a viable choice for low-level parties to mantain a bit of balance.

3rd:Zsarkai (or however they are spelled) are the albino drows right? I guess you could ask for a sense motive OOG and IG maybe if the character inquestion is an elf (or really familiar with) might feel something is off about them, or their manerism don't coincide with the normal elves.

4rth: Darkness doesn't make things pitch black it actually provides shadowy illumination (unless drow have a different darkness SLA from the spell) so I don't think that would be too useful. As for what a party can do to prevent this, I suppose dispel magic or higher level light spell.


And as a matter of fact I prefer Eberron Drow (me <3 Guerrilla style combat)
Hope that helps

Edit: Ninjas.... Ninjas.... Nijas everywhere

[jmbrown]

1. Drider's are rare and hated by everyone. Although they retain their memories, their aberrant form makes them bitter and spiteful. I guess you can say the reason they haven't "taken over" is because they can't stop killing each other long enough to form a coherent army. 4E flipped this around and made drider's a holy symbol of Lolth.

2. Drow ecology has changed immensely over the editions. In AD&D their magic resistance and abilities were explained by the "radiation" that emanates from the underdark. Drow don't craft traditional magic items, rather they weave the energies of the underdark into mundane steel. Magic items disintegrate in sunlight which counteracts the underdark's power. Artifacts are protected from the sun and keep their powers unless exposed for several weeks. Drizzt lost most of his powers because of this.

3. I don't know their racial bonuses but they're not real (high) elves so they can't casually pass as them. You might be fooled at a casual glance but you should be able to spot them as what they truly are unless they're actively disguising themselves which would require a spot check.

4. Drow are just as incapable of seeing in magical darkness as all the other races. The neat trick is that it actually lightens pitch blackness. Go figure.

[AirGuitarGod32]

So a drider wizard isn't worth the levels?

[tyckspoon]

Mechanically speaking, Drider Anything isn't worth the levels. +4 LA sucks too hard. If you really want to do it, then capitalizing on their natural spellcasting with further cleric/wizard/sorcerer (preferred cleric/wizard, sorcerer doesn't want to deal with having an even more delayed spell progression) is the way to go, but any decent optimization will yield a more powerful character out of 4 class levels.

If you're deliberately playing high-power in a fashion that mitigates the LA, tho (ie, an 'everybody's a monster' game with free LA or gestalt with all the RHD and LA compressed into a few levels or shoved on one side) then the Drider is a very quick lead in to a nice gish (or.. any other caster, but the +4-6 to all stats really ought to be used for something.)

[Tengu_temp]

The material from which drow equipment is made is Adamantite, not Adamantine. A small difference in names, a big difference in how they work.

Ugh, and now I recall a NWN2 server that gave adamantine weapons only to the drow, and made them crumble in sunlight. Did I mention that this was a very surface vs Underdark pvp-centric server? Yeah, that place sucked.

So a drider wizard isn't worth the levels?

If it's LA is higher than +1, maybe +2, then it's not worth it for a caster.

[AirGuitarGod32]

I was actually focused on the Monster Class Levels, which, while being 10, seems like a worthwhile endeavor for an 18th level campaign. Because the next one that grants caster levels, the Rakshasa, has 3 more levels and immunity to basically any spell

[Foryn Gilnith]

1) Lolth simply doesn't have the welfare of drow culture as her main priority. That's her second priority; her main is ****s and giggles. And exiling drider amuses her. As for monster classes, blame WotC.
2) Yes, it's sort of an ass pull, but if the players aren't too greedy and the GM isn't too strict with money-making schemes, it can work out.
3) Sense Motive checks to discern cultural differences. Detect Evil. Dominate Person. But at some point, it gets sort of hard to tell apart szarkai and evil elves.
4) Run like hell. You got a last glimpse of your surroundings before darkness fell - use it. Run (or at least hustle) out of the darkness. Or, if you're really low-level and you're being attacked by multiple drow rogues, just hop on board the choo-choo train. Or show your DM the section about EL/CR in the DMG.

[Gnaeus]

Very, very few of those monster classes are actually worthwhile. There are only half a dozen or so high (higher than +2) RHD/LA options that are really worth it in the game, and I can't think of any of them that have class progressions in savage species. Only if gestalt or some kind of LA reduction is in play are they remotely worthwhile.

[ken-do-nim]

Well, you said all editions so I'll answer from the 1st edition D1-3/Q1 point of view.

1. Lolth doesn't want a lot of high-level drow walking around. In 1E she's a 16th level cleric/14th level magic-user in drow form, and when drow get close to that she prefers to strip most of them of their power with the incredibly hard test and turn them into her guardians. In Q1 you see some driders with 7th level and 5th level magical ability, so one could assume that the transformation to drider cuts the character level in half; so no, they are not as powerful as if they'd remained drow.

2. see jmbrown's answer

3. not in 1E

4. 1E darkness is true darkness, and drow can use their infravision to see in it, but so can the party elves, dwarves, and half-orcs. Humans are advised to carry around continual light necklaces, even if it acts as a "here I am come and get me" beacon.

The unasked question about drow hate is that after their utter coolness in the D series when they were originally introduced, they've been copied so many times it has become cliche.

[Gamerlord]

On another note, am I the only one who thinks drow should be LA +1?

[Foryn Gilnith]

No. Think of how many people play 3.5, after all.

[AirGuitarGod32]

The unasked question about drow hate is that after their utter coolness in the D series when they were originally introduced, they've been copied so many times it has become cliche.

well, to Drow Hate, there's three I can think of.

1. Almost all Drow PCs are the same, thanks entirely to Drizzt.
2. Their weapons are useless in sunlight
3. Fragile Treasure Chest Syndrome

[Tiki Snakes]

1. This one is focused on Drider. Number one, why in god's green earth are THEY the exiles? Sure, they bombed the test. But aren't they worth 5 drow? and why do they, as a monster class, get the short stick? I mean a poison? a lot of useless SLAs? and are 4 levels under a human wizard? what's the point??????

I'll touch on this one because I have some (largely heretical and non-canon) musings on the subject, relating to a campaign I'm playing in (and on the general subject of Lolth and the Drow).

Driders are 'Cursed' by Lolth when they fail the test, and given the form of a half Drow, half spider. This is indeed Lolth's own form, at least part of the time.

But it is only her form at all, because Corellon Larethion cursed her with it. She was, before then, Araushnee and both beautiful and essentially Elven (though probably still dark skinned and light haired).

A lot of Lolth's more odd and obviously evil behaviour explicitely seems to originate after this event. Irregardless of the fact that she had just been stopped from attempting to overthrown Corellon as the cheif deity of elvenkind, here we have a potentially very traumatic event for her. She is spurned by her Lover, cast out of her society, given the name 'Lolth' and called a Demon. She is then forcefully changed into the appearance of one, and banished altogether.

The transformation was explictely so that he, Corellon, would no longer find her alluring and consider ever changing his mind about forgiving her, etc.

I find it makes perfect sense that Driders are such a confusing and conflicting symbol for the Drow, both a source of and an icon of (pride?) and a target to be hated and looked down upon. I believe it very much reflects Lolth's own conflicted mental state.

[Sinfire Titan]

And as a matter of fact I prefer Eberron Drow (me <3 Guerrilla style combat)
Hope that helps

Edit: Ninjas.... Ninjas.... Nijas everywhere

+1. One of the few variations of Elf I'm willing to tolerate.

[Kelb_Panthera]

snip

Hit the nail on the head. The form of a drider is indeed a punishment because while it matches lloth's form, the form was thrust upon her by corellon. BTW, Lloth's entirely bat-**** crazy. She keeps her "chosen people" constantly, often literally, at each others throats. She does everything she does because she's mentally unbalanced, more so than most deities.

[ken-do-nim]

I'll touch on this one because I have some (largely heretical and non-canon) musings on the subject, relating to a campaign I'm playing in (and on the general subject of Lolth and the Drow).

Driders are 'Cursed' by Lolth when they fail the test, and given the form of a half Drow, half spider. This is indeed Lolth's own form, at least part of the time.

But it is only her form at all, because Corellon Larethion cursed her with it. She was, before then, Araushnee and both beautiful and essentially Elven (though probably still dark skinned and light haired).

A lot of Lolth's more odd and obviously evil behaviour explicitely seems to originate after this event. Irregardless of the fact that she had just been stopped from attempting to overthrown Corellon as the cheif deity of elvenkind, here we have a potentially very traumatic event for her. She is spurned by her Lover, cast out of her society, given the name 'Lolth' and called a Demon. She is then forcefully changed into the appearance of one, and banished altogether.

The transformation was explictely so that he, Corellon, would no longer find her alluring and consider ever changing his mind about forgiving her, etc.

I find it makes perfect sense that Driders are such a confusing and conflicting symbol for the Drow, both a source of and an icon of (pride?) and a target to be hated and looked down upon. I believe it very much reflects Lolth's own conflicted mental state.

Very nice! I find myself trying to work in the fact that while in spider form she is immune to psionic attack into this backstory.

[AirGuitarGod32]

Very nice! I find myself trying to work in the fact that while in spider form she is immune to psionic attack into this backstory.

Corruption of the mind that severe could have "interesting" effects, such as immunity to mental effects.

Trauma victims are left with a damaged psyche, leaving most normal (or abnormal) froms of mental persuasion ineffective. Take the mission in Mass Effect. Only Shepard, a man who went through the same Hell, was able to calm the one girl down in the Paragon (therefore canon) path of that case.

[Cicciograna]

I've never heard of material that melts in the sun

...ice?

[Grumman]

Drowcraft is an armour or weapon ability that gives a +2 bonus (Deflection or Luck) for a +1 cost. It only gives this bonus in the Underdark, and when exposed to sunlight must pass a DC 8 Fort save per day or be destroyed.

[Bibliomancer]

Drowcraft is an armour or weapon ability that gives a +2 bonus (Deflection or Luck) for a +1 cost. It only gives this bonus in the Underdark, and when exposed to sunlight must pass a DC 8 Fort save per day or be destroyed.

In which rulebook is that equipment subtype located?

[Grumman]

In which rulebook is that equipment subtype located?

Underdark, one of the Faerun books.

[Bibliomancer]

Underdark, one of the Faerun books.

Thanks. That makes sense.

How much of drow culture is outlined in that book?

[Sinfire Titan]

Thanks. That makes sense.

How much of drow culture is outlined in that book?

Enough to confirm that they are psychotic.

[bansidhe]

The reason Drow are,frankly ,Boring too me is that Ive yet too see one played Intelligently.

Far too often they seem too be the race of choice for the Chaotic Stupid or Pervy Leather type of player,shame really...so much potential there and salvatore spoiled it...Tsk,Oh well!..

[AirGuitarGod32]

I had once considered a Dread Necromancer/Death Master using a Drow. Kinda creepy character with almost "pervy" tendancies of touching other PC's skin, and often would use a few healing spells to "not damage a beautiful body."

[Longcat]

Drow LA can be bypassed by playing Lesser Drow.

That said, the reason why I like them? 'Cause they are HAWT! Flawless, jet-black skin, smooth, silky hair, and those purple eyes... hmm...