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    PaladinGuy

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    Default (3.5) Intiator Stacking Feat - PEACH

    Current Iteration of the Project:

    Martial Practice

    Pre-requisite: At least one level in a martial adept class.

    Benefit: Choose one of your martial adept classes, and any one other class you have. Your levels in the second class stack with your levels in the chosen martial adept class for the purpose of determining your Initiator Level in that class. Maneuvers readied by that class that depend on Initiator Level therefore gain the full level in the other chosen class, rather than half, and when taking new levels in the chosen martial adept class, or any Prestige Class that adds maneuvers to that class, the full level in the second class may be added to the Initiator Level to determine the highest level maneuver you may learn. Your levels in the second class also stack with your levels in the chosen martial adept class for determining when you may swap out maneuvers known.

    Normal: Classes other than martial adept Prestige Classes add half their level to your Initiator Level.

    Special: The stacking for maneuver swap progression is retroactive. On taking this feat, you may immediately replace the appropriate number of maneuvers known with other, potentially higher level, maneuvers. You may not gain more than two maneuvers of any given level higher than you could previously learn as a result of this immediate swap, though you may count maneuvers as higher level than they actually are for the purpose of this restriction. You may also replace one of your stances known.
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    So, here's an idea I've had. I've seen a lot of ideas for bumping initiator levels on these boards, and the Penny Dreadful team came up with a beautiful monk variant that stacks levels for the purposes of a few, distinct disciplines. I began to wonder what a lumbering oaf of a barbarian would look like with martial maneuvers. When I saw the Demented One's Army of One discipline, it seemed a pretty close fit, with its enormous charge attacks and power attacks against multiple foes.

    I'd like a critique of the balance of this, and I'd also like some help with the wording. In deciding which class would match best with the barbarian, it seemed like the Crusader was the best fit, since it has the damage pool and the random (or chaotic) nature of the way Crusaders recover maneuvers.

    A couple of Fluff notes:
    I think the fluff of Army of One has to do with speed, but I think with a barbarian it would be useful to refluff it. Rather striking all opponents within reach because of speed, I'd suggest roleplaying that one strikes all opponents in reach because one swings such a giant club so hard.

    I also think it might do to refluff the recovery method of the Crusader. Instead of prayer, it might be that some sort of frenzy might be more suitable.

    Thanks, Playgrounders!

    An edit: I'm not sure what the pre-req should be for this. I like the idea of being able to select this feat before taking the first Crusader level, rather than after... Is it asking too much?

    From Chaos... Beauty
    [General]

    There is cruelty and violence when a barbarian fights, to be sure. But--occasionally--their lumbering begins to take on a beauty of its own. One the one hand is rage, anger, and violent emotion. On the other is the Sublime Way, harmony, peace, and grace. A barbarian who trains under a martial master welds two seemingly contradictory natures into one brutal fighting style.

    Prerequisites: 5 levels in a class granting the ability to rage/frenzy.

    Benefit: For the purposes of "Army of One" maneuvers and stances (or another discipline approved by your DM) your Barbarian level stacks with your Crusader levels (instead of 1/2 your Barbarian level) to determine your total Initiator level. This does not affect the total of number of maneuvers known, but only the power-level of those maneuvers.

    Special Note: In gestalt play, Barbarian levels stack across the gestalt, but do not overlap, with Crusader levels for the purpose of determining Initiator level.

    Normal: Only 1/2 your total levels count towards you Initiator level when multiclassing.
    Example:
    Let's take a level 6 barbarian as an example. If you have 6 Barbarian/1 Crusader, normally you would count as IL 4, giving you access to five 2nd level maneuvers and one 2nd level stance.

    Now you have a barbarian with this feat. She takes her first level of Crusader, and now has an IL 6, giving her access to five 3rd level maneuvers and one 3rd level stance.

    It's important (I think) that this feat be allowed to come before the first level of Crusader. Otherwise, by taking this feat, one would only gain four higher level maneuvers and two higher level stances over 10 levels, since so many are gained the first level.
    Last edited by Barbarian MD; 2010-01-22 at 05:35 PM.

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    Default Re: (3.5) Initiator Level Stacking Feat - Crusader/Barbarian (PEACH)

    Battlefield rumor holds that there exists an old and powerful martial tradition, practiced by elite dwarven defenders, hobgoblin shock troopers, and battle-mad berserkers.
    I think I found your fluff.

    Did you know 'rage', as in, anger making you powerful, was derived from the vikings of real life? Anger alone doesn't make you fight better - technically, in a battle, everyone is angry. But viking berserkers had a particular mental control over themselves to 'rage', to have sudden bursts of energy - some would also consume herbs (read: narcotics) to become like this; other warriors in real life (such as the hasassins) have done it too. Barbarians in D&D aren't required to consume herbs - they just instinctively learn how to achieve this mental state... or maybe they're just a tough guy that decides to get angry... can only do it once a day (three times if they took extra rage).

    And 'lumbering oaf' implies low DEX. Works fine if you wanna make an ogre, but a regular water orc is just as agile as a human, so... y'know.
    Last edited by imp_fireball; 2010-01-20 at 04:19 PM.

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    Default Re: (3.5) Initiator Level Stacking Feat - Crusader/Barbarian (PEACH)

    The "Benefit" section does not make it clear what the GM is choosing between.

    Traditionally such benefits help out BOTH sides of a dual classing. The most obvious think to have here is that Crusader levels stack with Barbarian levels for determining (on the Barbarian chart) Rage (times per day, Mighty, Tireless, and anything else I am forgetting) and perhaps Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge.
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: (3.5) Initiator Level Stacking Feat - Crusader/Barbarian (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    Snip.
    Right. I hadn't even thought about advancing the barbarian's abilities. I'm playing in a gestalt game and plan to continue advancing barbarian anyway on the other side of the gestalt.

    Hmmm... Half your Crusader levels count towards advancing rage-related abilities (but not, say, DR, trap-sense, etc)?

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: (3.5) Initiator Level Stacking Feat - Crusader/Barbarian (PEACH)

    I'd honestly rework the prerequisites on this thing. Most likely "Ability to rage or frenzy or do the tango, you get the idea; Ability to initiate 2nd level maneuvers of (either X discipline or as X class)."

    Personally, I'd go with having the barbarian levels increase the IL to full for all maneuvers from X class. I would also throw X class rage usages/day and DR, or maybe another one of the barbarian's class features that don't really matter.

    Meanwhile, I'd go ahead and brew up some maneuver progression for the barbarian. Somewhere between 1/2 and 1 of the normal X class's progression, probably .75.
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: (3.5) Initiator Level Stacking Feat - Crusader/Barbarian (PEACH)

    As I noted, I'd prefer to not require martial levels to take the feat. A Crusader gets more than half his maneuvers (5) for Levels 1-10 at Level 1. There's very little benefit (in my mind, at least) in taking this feat if you don't see te benefits until late in the game, especially considering that 1/2 levels already count towards initiator level without the feat.

    I do appreciate suggestions, but if we need to nerf this, I'd like to nerf it in other ways.

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: (3.5) Initiator Level Stacking Feat - Crusader/Barbarian (PEACH)

    I just realized there might be some miscommunication about what this feat is intended to do.

    When I say "initiator level", I'm not speaking of how many maneuvers you know. I'm only speaking of the level of maneuver you get. So you still only get a total of 5 maneuvers at first level, regardless of how many levels you have of barbarian, but you get 5 Level Three maneuvers, rather than 5 Level Two maneuvers.

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    DragoonWraith's Avatar

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    Default Re: (3.5) Initiator Level Stacking Feat - Crusader/Barbarian (PEACH)

    I think you've restricted it more than necessary. Seriously, I'd say that simply having a feat like this would be balanced:

    Martial Practice
    Pre-requisite: At least one level in a martial adept class.
    Benefit: Choose one of your martial adept classes, and any one other class you have. Your levels in the second class stack with your levels in the chosen martial adept class for the purpose of determining your Initiator Level in that class. Maneuvers readied by that class that depend on Initiator Level therefore gain the full level in the other chosen class, rather than half, and when taking new levels in the chosen martial adept class, or any Prestige Class that adds maneuvers to that class, the full level in the second class may be added to the Initiator Level to determine the highest level maneuver you may learn.
    Normal: Classes other than martial adept Prestige Classes add half their level to your Initiator Level.
    If you're going to have all the restrictions and pre-requisites that you have on your feat now, I'd recommend some way of swapping out maneuvers for Army of One maneuvers of the new, higher level.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: (3.5) Initiator Level Stacking Feat - Crusader/Barbarian (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by mhvaughan View Post
    I just realized there might be some miscommunication about what this feat is intended to do.

    When I say "initiator level", I'm not speaking of how many maneuvers you know. I'm only speaking of the level of maneuver you get. So you still only get a total of 5 maneuvers at first level, regardless of how many levels you have of barbarian, but you get 5 Level Three maneuvers, rather than 5 Level Two maneuvers.
    Oh, no, I am aware that you did not intend to grant maneuvers through barbarian levels with this feat. I was merely suggesting that.


    Although, I have to say, Dragoon Wraith's proposal is pretty solid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wings of Peace View Post
    "See these cookies? Note how while good they taste sort of bland. Now try these, they're the same cookies but with chocolate chips added. Notice how with the second batch we expended slightly more ingredients but dramatically enhanced the flavor? That's metamagic."
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Seriously, can we kill this misconception now? A wizard is never late, nor is he early. He shops for precisely what he means to.


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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: (3.5) Initiator Level Stacking Feat - Crusader/Barbarian (PEACH)

    Okay, would it be possible to amend the feat that DragoonWraith suggested with something like the following:

    Bonus: When taking this feat, you may choose to retrain any or all of your maneuvers according to your recalculated Initiator Levels, so long as the new maneuvers all come from a single discipline. This does not mean that all newly-retrained maneuvers are retrained at your current IL, but rather at the level you would have had as if you had this feat at ECL 1.

    There has to be a better way to word that...
    Last edited by Barbarian MD; 2010-01-20 at 08:51 PM.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: (3.5) Initiator Level Stacking Feat - Crusader/Barbarian (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by mhvaughan View Post
    Okay, would it be possible to amend the feat that DragoonWraith suggested with somethig like the following:

    Bonus: When taking this feat, you may choose to retrain any or all of your maneuvers according to your recalculated Initiator Levels, so long as the new maneuvers all come from a single discipline. This does not mean that all newly-retrained maneuvers are retrained at your current IL, but rather at the levwl you would hae had as if you had this feat at ECL 1.

    There has to be a better way to word that...
    Not quite sure on how to word it, but it would certainly give more incentive to both take the feat and progress in non-IL classes. I wouldn't worry so much on restricting what disciplines can be retrained.

    Hmm, maybe "When you take this feat, you may retrain X maneuvers (where X is some variable to be determined later, natch) to any maneuvers that you can use at your new Initiator Level for your chosen class."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wings of Peace View Post
    "See these cookies? Note how while good they taste sort of bland. Now try these, they're the same cookies but with chocolate chips added. Notice how with the second batch we expended slightly more ingredients but dramatically enhanced the flavor? That's metamagic."
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Seriously, can we kill this misconception now? A wizard is never late, nor is he early. He shops for precisely what he means to.


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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: (3.5) Initiator Level Stacking Feat - Crusader/Barbarian (PEACH)

    So, what are people's thoughts on this?

    Martial Practice

    Pre-requisite: At least one level in a martial adept class.

    Benefit: Choose one of your martial adept classes, and any one other class you have. Your levels in the second class stack with your levels in the chosen martial adept class for the purpose of determining your Initiator Level in that class. Maneuvers readied by that class that depend on Initiator Level therefore gain the full level in the other chosen class, rather than half, and when taking new levels in the chosen martial adept class, or any Prestige Class that adds maneuvers to that class, the full level in the second class may be added to the Initiator Level to determine the highest level maneuver you may learn.

    Normal: Classes other than martial adept Prestige Classes add half their level to your Initiator Level.

    Special:When you select this feat, you may retrain X number of maneuvers using your current Initiator Level, where X=1/2 the number of levels you have in your second, non-martial class.

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    Default Re: (3.5) Initiator Level Stacking Feat - Crusader/Barbarian (PEACH)

    I think I have a better idea for the swapping out maneuvers part:

    Martial Practice

    Pre-requisite: At least one level in a martial adept class.

    Benefit: Choose one of your martial adept classes, and any one other class you have. Your levels in the second class stack with your levels in the chosen martial adept class for the purpose of determining your Initiator Level in that class. Maneuvers readied by that class that depend on Initiator Level therefore gain the full level in the other chosen class, rather than half, and when taking new levels in the chosen martial adept class, or any Prestige Class that adds maneuvers to that class, the full level in the second class may be added to the Initiator Level to determine the highest level maneuver you may learn. Your levels in the second class also stack with your levels in the chosen martial adept class for determining when you may swap out maneuvers known.

    Normal: Classes other than martial adept Prestige Classes add half their level to your Initiator Level.

    Special: The stacking for maneuver swap progression is retroactive. On taking this feat, you may immediately replace the appropriate number of maneuvers known with other, potentially higher level, maneuvers. You may not gain more than two maneuvers of any given level higher than you could previously learn as a result of this immediate swap, though you may count maneuvers as higher level than they actually are for the purpose of this restriction. You may also replace one of your stances known.
    A Barbarian 11/Crusader 1 who took this feat would get to swap out five maneuvers (for levels 4, 6, 8, 10, and 12), with a maximum of 2 6th level maneuvers and 2 5th level, and one stance. This works out to essentially the same as your idea for the immediate result, but works better afterwords, I think.
    Last edited by Douglas; 2010-01-22 at 12:40 AM.
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    Default Re: (3.5) Initiator Level Stacking Feat - Crusader/Barbarian (PEACH)

    ik, i'm here finally. i like the tweaks that douglas did with dragoonwraith's proposal. that one will work.
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