Optimizing: Core-only gnome fighter - any ideas?

[Glass Mouse]

Okay, a challenge!

I have to make a D&D character (yay, I get to be a player again!), and I'm really stuck on how to make her effective.
Starting level is 6, and if possible, I'd like it to stick to core. The more out-of-core, the more smooth-talking I have to do to my GM (without a guaranteed result).
Anyone up for the challenge?

My first thought was a gnome paladin, but I like the fluff of the class way more than the mechanics. So, right now I'm thinking of agnome fighter, posing as a paladin.
I want a one-level dip into bard, simply for the ekstra skill points and the roleplaying fun. (optimizers, you may cry, but believe me - missing a level is not gonna hurt much in this group).

Stats are, before racial modifiers (and currently in this order):

13 (str)
18 (dex)
16 (con)
12 (int)
8 (wis)
14 (cha)

Right now, I have a dex-based, kukri-wielding fighter with a lot of hp. If I can convince my GM, I might throw in a riding burrowing animal of some kind.

I thought about making her crit-based, but there aren't really many opportunities in core, outside of keen and Improved Critical (too low level).
Weapon finesse and power attack seems like a nice combination, though a bit meh.
If I can get the mount, a riding-focused, lance-wielding gnome seems like fun, too.
Maybe TWF and ITWF up the wazoo?

But really, any ideas are welcome. So, people.. Pimp my gnome wannabe paladin

[Eldariel]

Mounted combat would work really well if you had higher Str; unfortunately, Lance isn't finessable. If you e.g. traded Str and Dex (ending up with 15 Dex and 16 Str if I'm not mistaken), you could go for a fine Strength-based build thanks to the +1 To Hit from being Small cancelling out the Str-penalties.

While your base damage would be worse than a larger creature's, you get all the same bonuses. Now, the issue here, of course, is that as a TWFer in Core, you really have no efficient sources of bonus damage outside your weapon abilities and Weapon Focus-line. This is even more true if going Finesse.

Power Attack doesn't really work as light weapons can't be PAd with meaning unless you eat up -4 to both attacks (for using a one-handed weapon in the offhand), you'll only get the bonus on one weapon, and at -4, PA isn't really profitable.

[Gnaeus]

My inclination is to say that it can't be done well in core.

There aren't enough feats in core to make fighters really worthwhile. You wind up taking trash like weapon focus because you have nothing better. The fact that you start at level 6 only hurts you, because by level 6 the casters are already better than you.

TWF is really bad for fighters. It just doesn't do as much damage as fighting with a 2 handed weapon. You hit less, for less damage even if both weapons hit. It only really works if you have a way to automatically hit (like wraithstrike) or a source of damage separate from your weapons (like sneak attack), or some kind of good 2 weapon fighting cheese, like tiger claw from ToB.

The fact that you are small will be another hit. Lance works WAY better. you should really drop the Kukris.

My closest suggested core build would be Bard 1/Fighter 1-2/Sorcerer or Barbarian 1/Bard 2/Dragon disciple 1-10/Bard +. With Sorcerer you could take spells like true strike that you can cast in armor (true strike+lance+charge is good) or pre combat buffs like enlarge or shield for tanking. Barbarian has rage and good BaB, which would help you, but there is no way you are posing as a paladin once you rage. Dragon disciple gives good strength boosts to + your damage, and some powers that every good melee needs like flight and blindsense. You could always pass yourself off as a Paladin/Sorcerer/DD, which is a reasonable core build.

This is not an optimized build, but it is the best I can see with the core limitation and the melee paladin like focus.

If you are wedded to TWF in core, try Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Bard 1.

Best for melee is the addition of some or all of the following books:
Tome of Battle (by far the best, fixes most of your problems)
Magic Item Compendium
Complete Warrior or PHB 2, so at least you have enough feats that don't suck to make a fighter.

[Totally Guy]

I know size is against you but what about tripping people over with a hooked hammer? I did that with a Gnome Bard for a one shot adventure and it was pretty funny.

[Vizzerdrix]

I second mounted combat. Also get a bow and some poison. It isn't much, but every little bit helps. Try for the whole Mongolian mounted archer thing.

Also if you can get it, take a dip in cleric instead. I've been reading a guide on it, and a single level dip in cleric can be a wonderful thing.

[Eloel]

I'll give a few ideas that you might want to talk to your DM about. Yes, they're non-core, so if you don't want them, ignore me.

Gnome Quickrazor is a good way to get Sneak Attack in - unless you want to go Fighter as a class (rather than a concept), it could be worth it.

Breachgnome. It's fun, kinda the same power level as fighter (that is to say, low), and is generally interesting. Get spiked chain, and block somewhere - probably better than the so called road-blocks like dwarves.

[Gnaeus]

Also if you can get it, take a dip in cleric instead. I've been reading a guide on it, and a single level dip in cleric can be a wonderful thing.

I almost suggested it (or a druid dip for a companion/mount), but he has an 8 wisdom, and he is kinda MAD already. Without first level spells, I don't think the core domains are good enough to justify the loss in BaB.

[Vizzerdrix]

I almost suggested it (or a druid dip for a companion/mount), but he has an 8 wisdom, and he is kinda MAD already.

Meh. it's the turning you want and the domain abilities. Some of those turning powered feats would be a nice boost to a fighter.

[Gnaeus]

Meh. it's the turning you want and the domain abilities. Some of those turning powered feats would be a nice boost to a fighter.

Yeh, but they are all non core.

[Soranar]

alright

first, in core, crit based is worse than sneak attack based so don't bother (sneak attack always works, crits are luck reliant and so many things resist that)

second, you have really good stats, use them!

if you play a paladin, mounted to boot, don't bother with 2weapon fighting: you don't get access to pounce so you waste a lot of feats and stats to qualify

finally being small doesn't mean weak

so these are your stats (unchanged)

13 (str)
18 (dex)
16 (con)
12 (int)
8 (wis)
14 (cha)

I would put them this way

16 STR (becomes 14 with racial adjustment)
8 DEX (wear full plate and get a +4 dex equipment)
14 CON (becomes 16 with racial adjustment)
12 INT (enough to get a decent ride skill)
13 WIS (spend 1 point eventually to cast level 4 spells)
18 CHA (get insane saves, really good lay on hands and bonus to smite)

I don't recommend a burrowing animal unless he's stronger than a riding dog and still medium size, :
-you get to use your mount everywhere (medium size)
-it doesn't need trample to attack (bite attack)
-charging with a lance (x2 to all damage) 2handed with power attack smite and spirited charge (x3 instead of x2) makes a LOT of damage, if you can't do this well

and remember this

small size characters' armor weight half as much

a paladin is better than a fighter insofar as his saves are insanely high so a high charisma is always recommended

paladin spells (even just core) can be pretty useful

you might want to take armor optimization feats (BAB +8 and +11 to qualify) to get a bit more AC and less problems with skills

gl

[Glass Mouse]

I almost suggested it (or a druid dip for a companion/mount), but he has an 8 wisdom, and he is kinda MAD already.

I am willing to move the abilities around if neccessary (though I'm not sure what I should flunk instead...)

Hm... The cleric would give spells, and help me pose as a paladin. Not a bad idea, actually, and one that corresponds with her backstory.

Ozgun92, every idea is welcome. If it's good, I'll just convince my GM to allow it.

Nice ideas all around; you people are great! Just keep it coming

[Vizzerdrix]

Yeh, but they are all non core.

X) I always forget that the Completes aren't considered core.

[Eldariel]

I am willing to move the abilities around if neccessary (though I'm not sure what I should flunk instead...)

Hm... The cleric would give spells, and help me pose as a paladin. Not a bad idea, actually, and one that corresponds with her backstory.

Ozgun92, every idea is welcome. If it's good, I'll just convince my GM to allow it.

Nice ideas all around; you people are great! Just keep it coming

Cleric could actually pull off the TWF-stuff to a degree too, with Divine Favors and Righteous Mights and company to pump the damage. Cleric could really do anything quite well.

But yeah, Paladin isn't horrible. Though I'd switch Cha and Str around; 16/16 seems much better than 18/14 since you'll be attacking based on your Str most of the time.

And definitely make it Strength-based; non-Rogues really don't do Dex-based fighting in Core, simply because they don't have any way to do damage while doing so. Mounted Combat, on the other hand, is wonderful and something that's tailormade for small creatures (as they can ride medium creatures to dungeons thus fitting where everyone else) and Lance + Spirited Charge is practically the only way outside Pounce to deal good damage while closing in. And yeah, you get all the Mounted Archery-stuff and such too; Mounts open up options.

16 Str + Size Bonus means you'll have the same To Hit as larges with 18 Str; you'll just again be couple of points of damage behind. But honestly, straight Paladin isn't a bad option; you have enough feats to get Mounted Combat-line by level 6 and then can start picking up Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Blind-Fight, etc.


The one-point increase for 14 Wis could just as easily come from a Tome; it's level 16 before it becomes relevant anyways. And often, it's fully possible to use stat boosters for it too.

[Burley]

A gnome rogue with a hooked hammer and improved trip is, literally, teh awesome. Improved trip lets you get a free attack if you successfully trip. That means you get to SA that now prone enemy!

[Gnaeus]

A gnome rogue with a hooked hammer and improved trip is, literally, teh awesome. Improved trip lets you get a free attack if you successfully trip. That means you get to SA that now prone enemy!

No and no.

Gnomes have a total of -5 on their trip checks (with a 16 Str and Impr trip that rises to a whopping +3). Barring major optimization which is hard to do in core, you won't be able to trip anything large, or 4 legged, or with a high dex, or a high str. You will have a really hard time actually tripping anyone. You probably aren't much over 50% on the easiest opponents, like a typical human caster.

Failing your trip check means that you only have to drop your weapon to avoid winding up on the ground yourself. And as a rogue, you have to spend a feat on martial weapon proficiency for the honor.

Things that are prone are not denied their dex bonus. Things that are not denied their dex bonus (or flanked) cannot be SAed.

[ericgrau]

I've run the numbers before and gnomes make excellent fighters - one of the best in core - thanks to the size bonuses and con. Just play a regular fighter but without any special attacks, as these have size penalties. Though even without the feats you can still use them from time to time against opponents with truly sucktastic strength.

IIRC I recently did the gear for a level 6 fighter and it was +1 armor (and +1 shield if you have one), +2 gauntlets of ogre power, +1 cloak of resistance, +1 weapon. Then either +1 ring of protection and +1 amulet of natural armor or save for a +2 equivalent weapon (+1 with 1d6 of some energy damage). Since you're limited to core weapon focus is actually a good idea, and the rest of your feats depend on what you want to focus on.

EDIT: Oh, and you still want to make the gnome strength based. Finesse isn't so hot for beatsticks. Falchions and scimitars make good crit weapons, btw, and they're still okay before you grab improved crit (or the other methods of extending crit range). But other than extending your crit range focusing any more on crits is a bad idea.

[Person_Man]

Leadership is core, and is the perfect tool to balance your build against other more powerful builds in your party. Go the mounted combat -> Ride by Attack -> Spirited Charge route. Use a lance two handed with Power Attack and buy an Animated Shield. And ride a dragon or griffin or whatever seems appropriate. Paladin is FAR better for this then Fighter (as their Special Mount gets all sorts of bonuses), but anything works.

You might want to consider Bard 1/Paladin 4/Warchanter X. Although it's non-core, Warchanter is a fun but not particularly powerful team buff oriented PrC. And this gets you the Skills and fluff you want, and some decent abilities.

[ericgrau]

Eh, mounts are cheap to replace, pally mounts don't fly naturally, and fighters can load up on more mounted combat feats sooner. Either class works well enough. Leadership can also give you a mount cohort, btw, if you want a healthy progression. IIRC all you need is a 14 cha for a good leadership score, and by the time you're high enough level for an exotic mount you can get a +2 cha item cheaply enough. Though if your mounts die repeatedly, even with the progression, a higher leadership score is helpful for convincing new ones to join you in spite of this. That or a scroll of raise dead and playing xp catchup.

[Thrawn183]

Might I be the first to suggest a ranger?

Seems like you'd be interested in the skill points, the animal companion and TWF which ranger favored enemy bonuses help out a bit.